Thursday's News: Fluid drive with stripped gears - Where the hell's my Dynaflow?

[SwingMan]

Suns turn back Pacers in OT (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0109suns0110.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/pics/0109suns.jpg
Suns guard Marcus Banks tries to steal the ball from the Pacers' Jamaal Tinsley during first-half action Wednesday in Phoenix.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 9, 2008 11:40 PM

In the first quarter of Wednesday night's 129-122 Suns overtime win against Indiana, the Suns posted a get-well message on the US Airways Center scoreboard to forward Grant Hill after he had been hospitalized earlier in the day for appendicitis.

It should have been for the whole team. Point guard Steve Nash began to feel a stomach flu an hour before the game, left in the third quarter and did not go on the late-night flight to Utah for tonight's game, although he might fly in alone if he feels better.

Forward Shawn Marion fell hard on his right shoulder and elbow during the game and winced while getting dressed after the game. Even coach Mike D'Antoni did not feel all that hot, and that was before Indiana shot 68 percent in the first quarter.
http://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gifhttp://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gif

It was a good thing for Phoenix that guard Raja Bell felt better after recovering from a weekend flu that caused him to lose six pounds.

After Nash left the floor with 5:18 to go in the third and Indiana ahead 83-69, the Suns galvanized. They took the lead two minutes into the fourth and stepped up the defense and the rebound work, giving up only three second-chance points during the game's final 20 minutes.

It was ugly down the stretch, as neither team made a field goal for nearly five minutes until Amaré Stoudemire tied the score at 112 with 26.2 seconds remaining on a hanging, slanting fadeaway.

That sent the game to overtime, during which Bell made two crucial 3-pointers to hand Indiana its eighth loss in their past nine games. Already tired from losing 111-89 at Utah on Tuesday, the Pacers were further sapped by injuries to Jermaine O'Neal, Travis Diener and Kareem Rush.

Indiana had no answers, as guard Jamaal Tinsley went 0 for 8 in the fourth quarter and missed six of 10 of his overtime shots with Marion defending him. Tinsley's shots were taken on 10 consecutive Pacers possessions.

Meanwhile, the Suns stepped up. Bell hit six 3-pointers to finish with a season-high 27 points, and Leandro Barbosa also scored 27. Stoudemire had 25 points and 11 rebounds, and Marion added 23 points and 12 rebounds.

The Suns are 14-0 when Stoudemire has at least 20 points and 10 rebounds.

"If you can put together a resume of wins like that, it shows you've been battle-tested, and in the back of your mind you know you can do that," Bell said. "That's big coming down the stretch of the season and in the playoffs."

The Suns' offense fared well without Nash, outscoring Indiana 19-7 during the third quarter's final 4:48, picking up steam with Brian Skinner and Marcus Banks entering the game along the way. The Suns kept rolling at the start of the fourth, and a Banks left-handed drive gave Phoenix its first lead, at 97-96, since the first minute of the second quarter.

The Suns struggled defensively in the first quarter, a shortcoming made worse by Indiana's 19 second-chance points in the second and third quarters.

"We had a couple of guys that had a bug, and we had two or three in the first half who probably should have had an appendectomy," D'Antoni said.

Suns report

Cheers

The Suns cut off the Pacers' second chances to rally, giving up only three second-chance points from a time when they trailed by 14.

Jeers

Pacers guard Jamaal Tinsley went 4 for 18 after Indiana entered the fourth quarter with the lead, including an 0-for-8 fourth quarter.

Player of the game

It's a good thing Raja Bell got better because he scored big (a season-high 27 points) and hit two huge 3-pointers in overtime.

View from press row

It takes a lot for Steve Nash to get a technical foul. He frequently complains about being fouled but had only one technical this season until the second quarter Wednesday night. Nash drove, had a pass stolen and immediately complained about official Zach Zarba's non-call. When play eventually stopped, Nash approached Zarba and complained again. Zarba said, "OK." Nash turned toward the bench but said one more thing that prompted the technical foul. Then Nash really let Zarba have it.

- Paul Coro

Tonight's game

Suns at Jazz

When: 8:30 p.m.
Where: EnergySolutions Arena.
TV/radio: My45, TNT/KTAR-AM (620).

Utah update: The Jazz (19-17) also last played Indiana, beating the Pacers 111-89 on Tuesday for their third win in a row at home. Utah is 13-3 at home and traded Gordan Giricek last week for Kyle Korver, who is averaging 10.3 points in four games off the bench for the Jazz. Utah is led by Carlos Boozer (23.4 ppg, 11.1 rpg) and Deron Williams (19.1 ppg, 9.0 apg), but a back injury has kept Andrei Kirilenko out the past two games.

[Phoenix219]

Damn... I hope Marion's elbow/shoulder injury doesn't hurt his newly rediscovered 3 point shot.....

[JediSkywalker]

Damn... I hope Marion's elbow/shoulder injury doesn't hurt his newly rediscovered 3 point shot.....

WORD. That was a hard fall. I was worried for Marion. He got back in the game, but it's going to hurt a lot later. The Suns can't afford to lose one more player.

[fixxxer]

ESPN's J.A. Adande takes a veiled and misguided shot at the Suns...


Why the Suns' way inspires more concern than confidence (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Suns-080110)

By J.A. Adande
ESPN.com

Updated: January 10, 2008

PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns are whatever you want them to be, depending on your predisposed notions, perhaps even the tint of your glasses.

I came over to Phoenix because I'm curious about the Suns. Concerned might be a better word. I'd like to see this way work, to think that sharing the ball, running teams into submission, shooting at will can work in this league. That we'll be liberated from what feels like a decade of defense and discipline serving as the only formula for winning a championship. After everything basketball fans have been subjected to during the last year, the least we should get back in return is a Suns-Warriors conference finals.

Amare Stoudemire can point to a magic number -- the Suns usually win when he scores at least 20 points.

No Western Conference team has more victories, yet no division leader has as many nagging questions as the Suns, the team that can't seem to satisfy anyone.

"What's wrong with the Phoenix Suns?" I asked Raja Bell.

"I would put the question to someone: 'What's wrong with the Phoenix Suns?'" he responded.

It's all in the inflection. Say it the way Bell says it and it becomes rhetorical. It implies, what's wrong with a 25-10 record? What's wrong with having the highest-scoring, best-shooting offense in the league, along with a defense that quietly has gone from the bottom of the league to the middle of the pack?

The Suns are as much a matter of voice tone as visual perception. Sometimes there's a disconnect between the results you see and the means by which they arrive.

A team with such a prolific offense should produce more blowouts. But the Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers all have more double-digit victories.

Should the Suns be pleased with their comeback from a 16-point deficit to beat Indiana, 129-122, in overtime Wednesday night? Or should they be upset that they were down 16 at home in the first place to a 16-20 team playing the second half of a back-to-back set without injured center Jermaine O'Neal?

Should the Suns be encouraged because they rallied after Steve Nash left the game with the stomach flu? Or should they be worried because the last Sun who felt flu-like symptoms, Grant Hill, wound up getting his appendix removed?

Hill's appendectomy Wednesday evening is the latest little setback to a team that has yet to get an extended run with its full lineup (Bell's back and ankle problems being the most notable). Hill will miss two to three weeks, right after he had adjusted to his new team and found his groove. He had not missed a game before Wednesday, and his 34 starts already represent a higher total than four of his previous six injury-plagued seasons.

With Hill, coach Mike D'Antoni thinks the Suns have a better roster than they did last season. He also concedes, "We're not as sharp."

"It's not a cancer," D'Antoni said. "It's not something that looms. But when you lose, it puts it back out there."

He admits that the players feel the pressure from a fan base that feels they should win every game, that craves substance delivered with style. The Suns won an average of 59 games the first three seasons after Nash arrived.

Those seasons, "looked fantastic, they were shiny and new," Bell said. "And we didn't win [in the playoffs]. Maybe this time everybody's doubting and there's some concerns, and we're learning and getting better. Maybe that's the way."

But they're dealing with issues a team this good, this successful, with so many quality players, shouldn't have to. For example, who is the leader? There's no single voice that holds sway in the locker room. Nash, with his two MVP awards, would seemingly have the credentials. But you don't get the feeling his teammates play for him the way, say, the Hornets do for Chris Paul. When he does air the occasional public criticism of his team's efforts it doesn't exactly have the same effect as Larry Bird calling out the Celtics in the middle of the 1984 NBA Finals.

And you never get the sense the team's other stars -- Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire -- are content to play subordinate roles and let Nash get the bulk of the credit.

Is Stoudemire selfish to want more touches, which was the implication by his words and actions after the ball didn't come his way in a loss to New Orleans Saturday night? Or does he want what's best for the team? Because the numbers indicate the more Amare scores, the more the Suns win. They're 16-2 when he scores 20 points or more this season.

It's Stoudemire who gives them the inside scoring threat they need in the halfcourt set. He was the one who drew three trips to the free-throw line (making five of six shots) in overtime to help the Suns prevail Wednesday.

"My team depended on me, and I came through," Stoudemire said. But he was also partly responsible for the Indiana's 17 offensive rebounds and 22 second-chance points, a reminder of how costly his defensive and box-out lapses can be.

We learned from his costly suspension during the San Antonio series last year just how vital Stoudemire is to the Suns when he's playing well. His mood also dictates the biorhythms of this team. There was enough doubt about his motives when he said he missed practice Sunday to tend to his son's fever that Suns GM Steve Kerr said the matter would be "handled internally" -- a strange phrase for something that normally would be summarized with just a quick announcement from the public relations director.

Kerr met with Stoudemire to address the situation. Any and all fires need to be doused immediately; the Suns don't have the luxury of what firefighters call a "controlled burn." There isn't enough time. Inevitably, salaries (such as Marion's?) will continue to get dumped to avert the luxury tax. Nash will have a tougher time staying healthy. Teams will continue to adjust to Phoenix's style, including the Pacers' strategy of defending Nash with a bigger guard.

So the question remains: Can the Suns win this way? They've come close, making two trips to the Western Conference finals. They've been close enough to make one old-school NBA executive who always believed you win with size say, "They're making me wonder."

They have won six of their past seven, but only one of the victories came against a team with a winning record.

And they don't seem to be getting closer. In this league, if you're not getting better you're getting worse. The most telling stat was that the Suns are just 2-6 against the top Western Conference teams.

I came to Phoenix on Wednesday and saw the Suns' season summarized tightly enough to fit in an e-mail subject line. They won, but they didn't inspire confidence.EDIT: Just realised that sunsdotcom posted this in the "D'Antoni vs. Kerr" thread. Still, I think I'll leave it here since it's a better fit in the news thread rather than in a specific topic. Ok, no more ombudsman roleplay from me. :mrgreen:

[sunsdotcom]

you know, the solution to our expectation problems is simple: start winning games against the top teams, like we're supposed to. ;)

[JackArse]

ESPN's J.A. Adande takes a veiled and misguided shot at the Suns...


Why the Suns' way inspires more concern than confidence (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Suns-080110)

By J.A. Adande
ESPN.com

Updated: January 10, 2008

PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns are whatever you want them to be, depending on your predisposed notions, perhaps even the tint of your glasses.

I came over to Phoenix because I'm curious about the Suns. Concerned might be a better word. I'd like to see this way work, to think that sharing the ball, running teams into submission, shooting at will can work in this league. That we'll be liberated from what feels like a decade of defense and discipline serving as the only formula for winning a championship. After everything basketball fans have been subjected to during the last year, the least we should get back in return is a Suns-Warriors conference finals.

Amare Stoudemire can point to a magic number -- the Suns usually win when he scores at least 20 points.

No Western Conference team has more victories, yet no division leader has as many nagging questions as the Suns, the team that can't seem to satisfy anyone.

"What's wrong with the Phoenix Suns?" I asked Raja Bell.

"I would put the question to someone: 'What's wrong with the Phoenix Suns?'" he responded.

It's all in the inflection. Say it the way Bell says it and it becomes rhetorical. It implies, what's wrong with a 25-10 record? What's wrong with having the highest-scoring, best-shooting offense in the league, along with a defense that quietly has gone from the bottom of the league to the middle of the pack?

The Suns are as much a matter of voice tone as visual perception. Sometimes there's a disconnect between the results you see and the means by which they arrive.

A team with such a prolific offense should produce more blowouts. But the Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers all have more double-digit victories.

Should the Suns be pleased with their comeback from a 16-point deficit to beat Indiana, 129-122, in overtime Wednesday night? Or should they be upset that they were down 16 at home in the first place to a 16-20 team playing the second half of a back-to-back set without injured center Jermaine O'Neal?

Should the Suns be encouraged because they rallied after Steve Nash left the game with the stomach flu? Or should they be worried because the last Sun who felt flu-like symptoms, Grant Hill, wound up getting his appendix removed?

Hill's appendectomy Wednesday evening is the latest little setback to a team that has yet to get an extended run with its full lineup (Bell's back and ankle problems being the most notable). Hill will miss two to three weeks, right after he had adjusted to his new team and found his groove. He had not missed a game before Wednesday, and his 34 starts already represent a higher total than four of his previous six injury-plagued seasons.

With Hill, coach Mike D'Antoni thinks the Suns have a better roster than they did last season. He also concedes, "We're not as sharp."

"It's not a cancer," D'Antoni said. "It's not something that looms. But when you lose, it puts it back out there."

He admits that the players feel the pressure from a fan base that feels they should win every game, that craves substance delivered with style. The Suns won an average of 59 games the first three seasons after Nash arrived.

Those seasons, "looked fantastic, they were shiny and new," Bell said. "And we didn't win [in the playoffs]. Maybe this time everybody's doubting and there's some concerns, and we're learning and getting better. Maybe that's the way."

But they're dealing with issues a team this good, this successful, with so many quality players, shouldn't have to. For example, who is the leader? There's no single voice that holds sway in the locker room. Nash, with his two MVP awards, would seemingly have the credentials. But you don't get the feeling his teammates play for him the way, say, the Hornets do for Chris Paul. When he does air the occasional public criticism of his team's efforts it doesn't exactly have the same effect as Larry Bird calling out the Celtics in the middle of the 1984 NBA Finals.

And you never get the sense the team's other stars -- Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire -- are content to play subordinate roles and let Nash get the bulk of the credit.

Is Stoudemire selfish to want more touches, which was the implication by his words and actions after the ball didn't come his way in a loss to New Orleans Saturday night? Or does he want what's best for the team? Because the numbers indicate the more Amare scores, the more the Suns win. They're 16-2 when he scores 20 points or more this season.

It's Stoudemire who gives them the inside scoring threat they need in the halfcourt set. He was the one who drew three trips to the free-throw line (making five of six shots) in overtime to help the Suns prevail Wednesday.

"My team depended on me, and I came through," Stoudemire said. But he was also partly responsible for the Indiana's 17 offensive rebounds and 22 second-chance points, a reminder of how costly his defensive and box-out lapses can be.

We learned from his costly suspension during the San Antonio series last year just how vital Stoudemire is to the Suns when he's playing well. His mood also dictates the biorhythms of this team. There was enough doubt about his motives when he said he missed practice Sunday to tend to his son's fever that Suns GM Steve Kerr said the matter would be "handled internally" -- a strange phrase for something that normally would be summarized with just a quick announcement from the public relations director.

Kerr met with Stoudemire to address the situation. Any and all fires need to be doused immediately; the Suns don't have the luxury of what firefighters call a "controlled burn." There isn't enough time. Inevitably, salaries (such as Marion's?) will continue to get dumped to avert the luxury tax. Nash will have a tougher time staying healthy. Teams will continue to adjust to Phoenix's style, including the Pacers' strategy of defending Nash with a bigger guard.

So the question remains: Can the Suns win this way? They've come close, making two trips to the Western Conference finals. They've been close enough to make one old-school NBA executive who always believed you win with size say, "They're making me wonder."

They have won six of their past seven, but only one of the victories came against a team with a winning record.

And they don't seem to be getting closer. In this league, if you're not getting better you're getting worse. The most telling stat was that the Suns are just 2-6 against the top Western Conference teams.

I came to Phoenix on Wednesday and saw the Suns' season summarized tightly enough to fit in an e-mail subject line. They won, but they didn't inspire confidence.EDIT: Just realised that sunsdotcom posted this in the "D'Antoni vs. Kerr" thread. Still, I think I'll leave it here since it's a better fit in the news thread rather than in a specific topic. Ok, no more ombudsman roleplay from me. :mrgreen:


nooooooo. no one would ever take a shot at the suns. not even suns fans. =)

[da_suns_fan]

Suns schedule after 1/29 is absolutely BRUTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thu, Jan 31 San Antonio
Mon, Feb 4 Charlotte
Wed, Feb 6 New Orleans
Fri, Feb 8 Seattle
Sun, Feb 10 Washington
Wed, Feb 13 @ Golden State
Thu, Feb 14 Dallas
Wed, Feb 20 LA Lakers
Fri, Feb 22 Boston
Sun, Feb 24 Detroit
Tue, Feb 26 @ Memphis
Wed, Feb 27 @ New Orleans
Sat, Mar 1 Philadelphia
Tue, Mar 4 @ Portland
Wed, Mar 5 @ Denver
Fri, Mar 7 Utah
Sun, Mar 9 San Antonio
Tue, Mar 11 Memphis
Thu, Mar 13 Golden State
Sat, Mar 15 Sacramento
Tue, Mar 18 @ Portland
Wed, Mar 19 @ Seattle
Sat, Mar 22 Houston
Mon, Mar 24 @ Detroit
Wed, Mar 26 @ Boston
Fri, Mar 28 @ Philadelphia
Sat, Mar 29 @ New Jersey
Mon, Mar 31 Denver
Tue, Apr 1 @ Denver
Fri, Apr 4 Minnesota
Sun, Apr 6 Dallas
Tue, Apr 8 @ Memphis
Wed, Apr 9 @ San Antonio
Fri, Apr 11 @ Houston
Mon, Apr 14 Golden State
Wed, Apr 16 Portland

[Dustbuster]

His criticism of Nash not being a floor leader like - Chris Paul? Really? The usual word on the street is that Nash is the best in business at providing consistent leadership. I've never heard a negative observation of his leadership and getting the best out of guys before. Does this writer have anything to back up this point?

[Dustbuster]

What an odd season! Here we are with a record that says that we are the best team in a very talented Western conference. How come I just don't feel like we are the best team in the West, then?

[tbrkingofthesouth]

Maybe our games against the Hornets this season

[ShelC]

The difference between Paul and Nash is that Paul is clearly the alpha male. Hes the best player and his teammates know it. Tyson is a great defender, David West is very skilled, and Pejas a great shooter, but Paul is a great player. Nash is a great player as well, but has more veteran talent on the roster. He has to make sure Shawn, Amare, Grant Hill are happy. Hill is a different case cuz hes a true team guy. Shawn and Amare have egos, not in a bad way, but they need to feel like theyre on Nash's level, if not higher.

[SunsFan4Life]

Tonight is going to be very interesting. We all understand that it's to the point in this era of Suns Basketball where all that counts in April, that being said tonight could really help us toward that. Nash(Doubtfull) Hill(out) Marion sore and after looking at the recap of last nights gm it also said Barbosa and Marion had Flu like Symptoms as well.

I think Coach should go 8 Deep Tommorow with Tucker being that 8th guy and if anyone gets in foult rouble go with Marks. I doubt he plays Tucker and Wish DJ was back from the D-League because I think Coach feels more comfortable with DJ then he does Tucker and might acually play him.

But it's 1 of those games where your missing 2 of your starters...2 of your other top 6 are hurting that guys might be able to step up and prove to Mike D. that they can help us down the stretch. I love watching these games where Guys who don't play get a chance at proving they can play and help if need be.

[jed]

"The Suns are 14-0 when Stoudemire has at least 20 points and 10 rebounds."

You don't say. Really? Nah -- that's can't be, because I've seen coach sit Amare for enough long sretches in favor of Diaw or whoever else.

[SunsFan4Life]

Well in Fairness I don't really want Amare to be logging Sawn Marion type mintues in the Regular Season. He still is only 2 yrs removed from Micro Fracture Surgery and I'd rather them watch his mintues a lil bit in the regular season.

Now playoff time unless he's in foul trouble(which happens often) he needs to be avg high 30's 40+ on some nights

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...

[JustWinBaby]

Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...


Hmmmm

We basically lost our best two playmakers in Nash and Hill, even though Nash played he was pretty bad.

Indiana has a better record without Jermaine O'Neal in the lineup and got blown out in Utah with him playing.

Indiana was making everything until Tinsley bailed us out.

[AmareIsGod]

Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...


And we were healthy as shit huh? Amare and Matrix in foul trouble around half time. No Nash in the 2nd half. No Hill. Sitting atop the West. 3rd best record in the league. Yes, there are problems here and there that need to iron themselves out. Why don't you jump ship if you're going to freak out after every win or loss. Show some support for fuck sake.

[INFORMER]

Wed, Feb 13 @ Golden State
Thu, Feb 14 Dallas
Wed, Feb 20 LA Lakers
Fri, Feb 22 Boston
Sun, Feb 24 Detroit


OUCH!



Indiana has a better record without Jermaine O'Neal in the lineup and got blown out in Utah with him playing.

Indiana was making everything until Tinsley bailed us out.


WORD, on both accounts.

Re: ESPN article: I don't think the problem with the Suns is leadership. Nash is the leader and a freakin' good one at that. But him being the leader has (nor should have) no bearing on how many touches Amare gets. Nash doesn't require shots the way a typical No. 1 guys like Melo or LeBron. So let Nash lead away and let Amare get his 20/10 a game. Just add water and you have a championship.

BTW: The more adversity and criticism the Suns take, the more I think they can (and possibly will) win it all. It just smacks of the Miami Heat and Indianapolis Colts championship seasons.

[ShelC]

The more adversity and criticism the Suns take, the more I think they can (and possibly will) win it all. It just smacks of the Miami Heat and Indianapolis Colts championship seasons.

Just as long as it doesnt get to any "point of no return" territory. In the end, youve got to be willing to go to war with the guy sitting next to you. Thats where the team has to end up. They just have to look around at each other, realize that all the other bullshit is meaningless and theyre in it together for one reason and one reason only. I think we have that kind of chemistry, but the little things throughout the season kind of test that.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...


And we were healthy as shit huh? Amare and Matrix in foul trouble around half time. No Nash in the 2nd half. No Hill. Sitting atop the West. 3rd best record in the league. Yes, there are problems here and there that need to iron themselves out. Why don't you jump ship if you're going to freak out after every win or loss. Show some support for fuck sake.

AIG...a comment is not a freak out, so get a grip. If that's a freak out, your sensitivity meter, you're losing it. Next, our lineup minus Nash should damn well handle the Pacer's minus their only 'real' inside player...if you don't think so, then I think more of our personnel then you do...so maybe you should jump ship, since you think our 'real' personnel depth, etc. is so poor vs. such a midtier team...they're not the fragging Spurs or Mavs for for 'fucks sake.' I think and expect more of this batch of personnel...I guess you don't.

VT

[AmareIsGod]

I don't think it was "a comment". You made the observation that we should blow out Indiana without Jermaine O'Neal. That not having Nash isn't a big deal compared to them being without "their best interior player". Haven't others noted that they play better without Jermaine? They lost by nearly 30 the other night against Utah with him.

I guess you don't see being without Nash and Hill as much of a loss. They aren't key components to our success right?


Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...

A comment... Sounds like an observation that things are not well at all in Suns land. Let's fire coach and blow up the team. Trade Amare and Nash. This sytem just won't get it done. I've heard your rants over and over again about Coach. Quite frankly, I'm a little PISSED off at your assesment of the team. Boston lost last night to Charlotte. Oh no. Things aren't right in Celticsville. Get a grip. Enjoy the team and get off suicide alert.

[Nodack]

Originally Posted by Vladimir_Taltos
Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...

Could you tell us the last time you thought things were well, well at all? You don't have to give an exact date. Just narrow it down to a year. We know it wouldn't be from any year D'Antoni was coaching and we know before that the Suns were struggling to even make the playoffs so, I'm guessing you would have to go back to at least the KJ years. We didn't win it all then either so, I'm sure all their games were disconcerting/scary too. Maybe there never was a year you thought things were well.

[AmareIsGod]

It's funny. A lot of people here are realists. I tend to be from time to time (probably more of a homer than a realist, but a realist none the less). I know Worm used to always get a lot of flack but even he's learned to appreciate the team a bit and not lose sleep over the team. But Vlad takes the cake. I can't really think of ANYTIME he hasn't hated on the Suns in some fashion or another. Sometime he just dissapears for a few months. Then he comes back and starts up his tirades. Is there ANYTHING at all that makes you happy being a fan? Anything you enjoy about this team or that gives you hope that we're a good team? I think you were even freaking out after we beat Denver by over 20 points.

[EDC]

I thought this was a Suns board. We should probably keep the personal attacks somewhere else. Everyone has the right to their opinion. More talk about the Suns less about the fans.

I am glad we won the game but I also think that is a team we should be able to handle even with out Nash. I mean that just based on the talent of the two teams. In our current system we were lucky to pull it out after losing Nash.

Even with all that I still give the guys a decent chance to win tonight. I think they will rise to the occasion. If Amare scores more then 6 in the first quarter tonight we will win. :) That is my prediction.

[SpecialSauce]

It's funny. A lot of people here are realists. I tend to be from time to time (probably more of a homer than a realist, but a realist none the less). I know Worm used to always get a lot of flack but even he's learned to appreciate the team a bit and not lose sleep over the team. But Vlad takes the cake. I can't really think of ANYTIME he hasn't hated on the Suns in some fashion or another. Sometime he just dissapears for a few months. Then he comes back and starts up his tirades. Is there ANYTHING at all that makes you happy being a fan? Anything you enjoy about this team or that gives you hope that we're a good team? I think you were even freaking out after we beat Denver by over 20 points.

VT only shows up when things are bad, and only to bash D'Antoni and smallball. He then quietly runs away as we pick up steam and start playing great again. It's been that way since '04-'05. He makes a yearly "D'Antoni Sucks" thread. Now that doesn't mean I don't agree with him about D'Antoni, I'm just telling you like it is.

[SpecialSauce]

I thought this was a Suns board. We should probably keep the personal attacks somewhere else. Everyone has the right to their opinion. More talk about the Suns less about the fans.

I am glad we won the game but I also think that is a team we should be able to handle even with out Nash. I mean that just based on the talent of the two teams. In our current system we were lucky to pull it out after losing Nash.

Even with all that I still give the guys a decent chance to win tonight. I think they will rise to the occasion. If Amare scores more then 6 in the first quarter tonight we will win. :) That is my prediction.

Oh why don't you shut up already Erectile Dysfunction Chick???????????????????????????

:) justtttt kidding

[Shabazz]

I don't see a gameday thread anywhere so here is today's injury report:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0110sunsupdate.html


Nash will miss game vs. Jazz
Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 10, 2008 10:54 AM

Suns guard Steve Nash, who left Wednesday night’s game in the third quarter because of the flu, is not with the team in Utah and won’t play when the Suns and Jazz meet at 8:30 p.m.

Nash went to a Phoenix hospital last night for a midnight IV. Suns head athletic trainer Aaron Nelson said he would instruct Nash to stay home today, although Nelson said Nash was doing better.

Elsewhere:

Grant Hill checked out of a Phoenix hospital last night after a successful appendectomy. He’s expected to miss two to three weeks. Shawn Marion, who fell hard on his right shoulder and elbow during last night’s game, is with the team in Utah and will be evaluated later today.

Rookie D.J. Strawberry, who had not been scheduled to join the team until Friday’s practice in Phoenix, is flying in to Salt Lake today instead, giving the Suns 10 players for tonight if Marion is available.

[ShelC]

So how long does it actually take to recover from apendectomy surgery? 2 weeks and then another 7-10 days of practice? I can live with that.

How do we have 10 players even with Shawn and DJ? Banks, Barbs, Raja, Tucker, DJ, Stouds, Boris, Skin, Shawn, Marks....oh yea. Wow. We should go with all 10 tonight to keep guys fresh, especially after last nights OT.

[jkalldaway]

Hollinger lisys Amare number 1 center. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=c&seasonType=2&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtr ue%26pos%3dc%26seasonType%3d2
And then there's perhaps the best young center of them all, Stoudemire. Yes, maybe he's more legitimately considered a power forward than some other players on this list. But in Phoenix's system, he's a devastatingly effective "five" who ranks third in the league in PER. Besides, is it really so outlandish to describe a 6-10, 245-pound guy as a center?

[Ring_Wanted]

If he ever improves his D and controls that foul problem, he still has a shot at all time greatness.

[Uncle_Gene]

Don't know if it's posted of not, but don't forget to vote for YOUR favorite Suns players at USAToday.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/high-fives.htm

[fixxxer]

Suns guard Steve Nash, who left Wednesday night’s game in the third quarter because of the flu, is not with the team in Utah and won’t play when the Suns and Jazz meet at 8:30 p.m.Clearly the 2007-08 Phoenix Suns season was constructed purely for experiment and message board dissection. :mrgreen:

Suns sans Nash will be interesting if nothing else. If we pull it out (prematurely, even) against Utah without Nash and Hill, 'twill be a victory that's well above and beyond the commonplace W.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

I don't think it was "a comment". You made the observation that we should blow out Indiana without Jermaine O'Neal. That not having Nash isn't a big deal compared to them being without "their best interior player". Haven't others noted that they play better without Jermaine? They lost by nearly 30 the other night against Utah with him.

I guess you don't see being without Nash and Hill as much of a loss. They aren't key components to our success right?


Um, I find it disconcerting/scary that a game without Jermaine O'Neal was this damn close...things are not well, not well at all...

A comment... Sounds like an observation that things are not well at all in Suns land. Let's fire coach and blow up the team. Trade Amare and Nash. This sytem just won't get it done. I've heard your rants over and over again about Coach. Quite frankly, I'm a little PISSED off at your assesment of the team. Boston lost last night to Charlotte. Oh no. Things aren't right in Celticsville. Get a grip. Enjoy the team and get off suicide alert.

a. Coach, yes. Team, no.
b. Nowhere, nowhere, NOWHERE have I EVER said trade the team off or break it up. So you are flat out WRONG!
c. I don't care if you're pissed off. I have as much right to my opinion as you do yours.
d. I was never on suidice alert, my bitch is and always has been with D'A. Period. And my assessments and of others has been similar...I suggest you go off on them as you've started to vent on me, else you are a hypocrite as well as rude.
e. Anyone that thinks the utilization of what I consider to be an excellent stable of resources for this team has been up to snuff has not looked at the shortcomings of the team's performance. The major falldowns of the team, albeit less impactinng in the last two years than in the current, are consistent...and MANY of them point to coaching. You are welcome to ignore or not agree with that assessment...but Laz, Cap, and many others have commented on this repeatedly right along with me. While some of those same may not agree that it is likely to cause a change 'now,' the basis of my comments has NOT been a lone voice.

My pointing to a potential change in coaching is I think it is possible a change in coaching might get more out of this band of players. So long as Steve is the PG, our open court game is going to be there. What is not there is the half court game. This is where D'A falls down and where someone else, more open to mixing things up, might help us and might make a difference. Fine you don't agree...but that was the point...not the players.

VT

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Funny...I think that prior post make the point. I think the team as a whole is spot on...a reformed D'A, if he could, would make this the best team since the year we had Manning and Barkley, prior to Mannie's 2nd ACL. Last time I called it that Frank was gone...funny how I was right. So the little personal attacks I think are a little, out of place? I really thought this was a discussion board...not a cheerleading camp...feel free to let me know if that's the case, if we're going to that, no problem...I can pull Barney out of the closet all over again...

[Vladimir_Taltos]

AIG...I almost forgot...this is a game..a discussion board about a game more specifically. If a differing opinion on a game makes you so upset as to become this rude to someone, I think you should find a less frustrating hobby...you'll be happier for it, honestly.

VT

[SpecialSauce]

VT I find you to be a troll. You only come around when things are bad, and you always call for the coaches head. You're never around during the good times. That's the definition of a troll. There's no discussion with trolls, because they only pop their head out when the situation is beneficial to their argument.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

SK:

I'll just say I've known a number of these folks since the mid 90s. I don't need to justify myself to you. You want to talk w/me, fine. You don't, live and let live. I'm at peace with myself and you're welcome to your opinions.

Regards,
VT

[Xylus]

If Marion doesn't suit up tonight, here is the starting five for your Phoenix Suns:


Barbosa
Banks
Bell
Diaw
Amare

Skinner, Tucker, Strawberry, Pike, Marks

We can look at the bright side: At least Nash and Marion are out in the same game and not two separate games. We're gonna lose this one anyway, right? Or you can look at the bad side: With either Nash or Marion playing, we still stood a good chance of winning. Now we're almost completely screwed.

I think this is a glass half-full situation; Banks will get some major playing time, as will Skinner. And we'll most likely see the rooks in action tonight, hopefully at the same time. As long as the Suns put up a good fight, and Pike and Marks see very limited time, I'll be happy.

[cap]

Hollinger lisys Amare number 1 center. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=c&seasonType=2&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtr ue%26pos%3dc%26seasonType%3d2


Amare’s great, yes... but better than Dwight Howard?!

[Xylus]

Anyone watching the Spurs getting manhandled by the Pistons right now? I can't help but fight the feeling that the Spurs will make a comeback, but right now they're down by 17 late in the 2nd quarter. I hate the Pistons more than most teams, but nothing is greater than a loss in San Antonio.

[LazarusLong]

Vlad isn't a troll. He's been a lo-o-o-ongtime member of the core group.
Yes, his approach may scare away Mary Poppins, but 99% of the time there is a strong argument behind it.

My hope is that Kerr can be the influence that makes a difference with Mike D and the team. Otherwise, I'm in agreement with a number of Vlad's points.

Tonight will be a test. Can D'Antoni be creative with his lineups, or will 6 guys play 40 minutes each?

[v9]

SK:

I'll just say I've known a number of these folks since the mid 90s. I don't need to justify myself to you. You want to talk w/me, fine. You don't, live and let live. I'm at peace with myself and you're welcome to your opinions.

Regards,
VT

I mailed a Suns game tape to VT in 1997, back when he lived in Guatemala.

He gets pretty passionate about the team - just like the rest of us :)

[Nodack]

San Antonio has lost 5 of their last 10. They obviously won't win a Championship this year. :wink: <sarcasm>

[jed]

San Antonio has lost 5 of their last 10. They obviously won't win a Championship this year. :wink: <sarcasm>

I honestly don't think they will.

[INFORMER]

San Antonio has lost 5 of their last 10. They obviously won't win a Championship this year. :wink: <sarcasm>

I honestly don't think they will.

I'm beginning to have my doubts as well. But for them, it is still early. Their 2nd half of the season will be very telling.

[desertcoast]

What is this current fascination around here with Happy Fan/Angry fan bickering?

Some folks think there's nothing wrong
Some do.

Fine. Discuss. That's what we do.

Do we need to go back to the Optimist Thread and Pessimist Thread? :wink:

[Mori_Chu]

I honestly don't think they will.

The interesting thing is that SA will have two more tough rounds than they had last year, that being the first round and the Finals. Shockingly, the NBA Finals will actually be challenging this year. I'm 100% sure that one of the Pistons or Celtics are going to represent the East (I pick the Pistons). And either of those teams will give the Western champ a series. So San Antonio will have to play better to repeat.

I still think Dallas wins the title this year. *Nobody* is talking about them, but they are still deep, athletic, talented, hungry, and now they've become battle-scarred and tested. They will sneak up on everyone. Mark my words.

[JediSkywalker]

I honestly don't think they will.


I still think Dallas wins the title this year. *Nobody* is talking about them, but they are still deep, athletic, talented, hungry, and now they've become battle-scarred and tested. They will sneak up on everyone. Mark my words.

WORD. They had a rough start, but they are firing on all cylinders and they could be the most talented team in the NBA, if you consider top to bottom, and not just the top 5-6 players. They are looking awfully scary and my feeling is that they are going to win it all this year.

Where does that leave the Suns? In a much worse shape than they were any of the last 3 seasons. I think Dantoni will be gone unless the Suns win the title and that does not seem possible.

[Nodack]

What is this current fascination around here with Happy Fan/Angry fan bickering?

Some folks think there's nothing wrong
Some do.

Fine. Discuss. That's what we do.

Do we need to go back to the Optimist Thread and Pessimist Thread?

You are right DC. I have a tendency to let the constant complaining here get to me and I shouldn't let it. This isn't a place for fans to come to share their excitement for the team. This is a place for people to come to discuss how much they despise certain players and the coach and to share with each other which players and coaches we would rather have than the current crappy ones we have now that don't seem to have any chance whatsoever of winning a title. Well, I kind of take that back. Earlier in the year it was mostly the players that were considered crappy, now we have mostly settled on blaming the coach for everything.

Thanks for setting me straight DC. I have finally figured it out.

I'm in the wrong place.

[SwingMan]

Well, I'm taken for granted here anyways, so maybe I oughta leave as well.....

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Thanks for setting me straight DC. I have finally figured it out.

I'm in the wrong place.

Aw, come'on Dack...we spoke and while we might disagree, it was pretty civil...going all thin skinned because there' s disagreement on a discussion board is kind of silly and inappropriate, don't ya think? Don't play the wounded sheep. We're in a tough spot for the team right now...if we didn't get the spectrum of opinions when things aren't running right, we'd be the Mav's or Jazz or Spurs board, not who we are. Controversy and opinions have always been the heritage of this groups since days of yore. We were forged in the fires of Cubby's spam wars and emerged from the hell of AzCentral better for it. Flame wars etc., even at times with Cueball made for controversial, entertaining and spirited boards/groups of people on this topic. Everybody going all homer wearing cheerleader outfits and pushing around pompoms would be terribly boring, I would think...and would kill this place...because that's not where it comes from. You know good and well this is a tame time, compared to say a Ladmo vs. xxx war or a Cubby spam fest, interspersed with discussions about how shitty the Lakers are, about how Gene rants for endless days on fixing the paint, etc. Those things define this group, built it...and made us the best sports discussion board on the net, IMHO. And Cubster, if you're out there, stick it up your unwashed, chihuahua loving rearend...:).

Rant off...
VT

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Well, I'm taken for granted here anyways, so maybe I oughta leave as well.....

Swingie...I love ya...but I have to based on the prior post go all retro on ya...are you drunk, son! Wake up! Drop the sauce! For cryin' out loud, what made ya'll go all soft? Do we need Cubster or one his minions in here for a tad bit to thicken your skins up a bit? Geez...ya'll are loved and ya damn well knows it...so quit your belly achin' for cryin' out loud! (Tounge in cheek there folks...if you're not catchin' it!)

Rant 2 off...regards at this time of the night...God, isn't insomnia grand? :)
VT

[SwingMan]

Rhetoric sucks too, Vlad - especially when one (myself) can't convey it with his suck-assed typology. ;)

I was merely, in my own way, trying to relay to Nodack how ridiculous his reasoning for leaving sounds. Please stay, guy.

[Superbone]

We're all just one big happy (miserable) dysfunctional family!

Go Suns!

[desertcoast]

.. This isn't a place for fans to come to share their excitement for the team. This is a place for people to come to discuss how much they despise certain players and the coach..

I see it differently.
I think it is both, and it succeeds at both.

Let's face it; it's an obsessive indulgence from the outset.
This is not a gathering of casual fans.

Neurotic behavior goes with the territory...and you fit right in :wink: :wink:

(double smiley, just so you take that in the "here have a beer and a friendly punch in the shoulder" way....)