Thursday's News: Surprise! Suns wanna go big, so shut the hell up and play

[SwingMan]

(I swear, I know how D'Antoni would spell "head": B-O-N-E - thickest fucking cranium around, but he's getting the hint, a little.....)

Going big is Suns' next step (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1226suns.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/pics/1226sunscov.jpg
Amaré Stoudemire and Brian Skinner on the floor at the same time? Could be.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 26, 2007 10:22 PM

SANTA MONICA, Calif. - To handle a big problem, it may be time for the Suns to go big.

The Suns are going to give more time to the front-line combination of Brian Skinner and Amaré Stoudemire starting with tonight's game in Los Angeles against the Clippers, whose center, Chris Kaman, is averaging 18.6 points and 14 rebounds.

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni was hesitant to use the big-man pairing, but it looks more palatable after a series of games in which Phoenix has been shredded by interior scoring. That means less of Shawn Marion at power forward, where his shooting has not kept defenses honest.
http://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gifhttp://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gif

Marion is shooting 27.6 percent from three-point range after missing three tries Tuesday against the Lakers.

D'Antoni used Stoudemire and Skinner, the season's most pleasant surprise, together for 9:41 of Tuesday's 122-115 loss. The Suns and Lakers played even, but Los Angeles center Andrew Bynum still scored eight of his career-high 28 points in that time. Bynum's points came on post-ups, free throws, layups and dunks, some when the Suns helped on Kobe Bryant's pick-and-roll movement.

Stoudemire, as vocal as ever after Phoenix lost for the fifth time in eight games, stayed that way as he yelled out commands during Wednesday's practice scrimmages and then talked about the team playing smarter and "getting on the same page."

"We've got to get to the point where everybody's working and putting in time and effort to earn a championship," Stoudemire said. "I might have to speak up more and play harder. I'm playing hard, but from a leadership standpoint, I'll try to carry the load."

Stoudemire has been criticized for his interior defense, but D'Antoni defended his effort.

"It's not just Amaré," D'Antoni said. "Amaré is working and trying. He's engaged.

"You can't be little and be tough completely. There is a little bit of a thing there, but I think with Brian coming off, we can negate a little bit of it. But I think we played well enough to win (Tuesday)."

D'Antoni continued to be "encouraged" by his team's play amid its toughest part of the schedule.

He noted that the Suns won at San Antonio and had chances to do so at Dallas and with the Lakers.

"We're playing at a pretty high level, high enough to beat anybody, anytime, anywhere," D'Antoni said.

He said the difference Tuesday was as simple as missing 11 free throws and big swing plays, such as Marion's foul on a Bryant three-point try or Leandro Barbosa's foul on Trevor Ariza when Ariza was out of control late in the shot clock.

Suns guard Steve Nash said the difference between an acceptable 5-3 stretch and this 3-5 one lies with the games in which Phoenix did not play hard.

"We've got a lot of positives, and it's very early," Nash said. "This is probably good for us. You want to make everything positive, but maybe we need to face as much adversity as possible so that there are no unanswered questions.

"We just need to shut up and play, really play hard."

Note

Rookie guard D.J. Strawberry returned to Albuquerque after joining the Suns for Christmas in Los Angeles, his hometown.

Strawberry scored 26 points on 10-of-20 shooting in his Development League debut Sunday with three assists, four turnovers and four steals.

Thursday's game

Suns at Clippers

When: 8:30 p.m.
Where: Staples Center, Los Angeles.
TV/radio: My45/KTAR-AM (620).

Los Angeles update: The Clippers (9-17) are on a four-game skid after losing Saturday at San Antonio 99-90. They have played one home game since Dec. 9. An MRI on the left knee of ex-Suns forward Tim Thomas' left knee MRI was negative Wednesday, and he is day to day. The Clippers lost Paul Davis (knee) for the season last week after they had waived Ruben Patterson to sign Suns camp invitee Richie Frahm.

[JediSkywalker]

Despite their woeful record, the Clippers big men will be a handful for Phoenix. The Suns are vulnerable on the inside. Unless their outside shooting picks up, this could go into the L column. Sorry to sound so negative, but quite honestly I have lost faith in this team. There have been too many bad losses.

[scosuns]

Its just angering me that D'Antoni overall continues to do the same things over and over again. I'm somewhat happy that Skinner and STAT will be getting more time together, but that also means that we are giving in, which isn't a good sign toward other teams. Honestly, this team is pitiful. 19-9 or not, we aren't of a very good caliber. And we are consistently inconsistent.

[Phoenix219]

Giving up?

Didn't we do this with KT in '05-'06, with great success?

Just keep Barbs in the starting lineup and start using Banks or Tuck off the bench, and I think we'll be just fine.

Weren't we leading the league in a lot of defensive categories with KT that year?

Barbs/Bell, Hill, Diaw, Banks is a nice bench, isn't it?

[sunsdotcom]

clippers big men brand, TT, and Paul "who?" Davis are all out.

[scosuns]

We should win tonight. I mean, we are better than a lot of teams. Its just that we're not playing to our caliber, and its evident that guys are slacking. And i'll sound immature too about it. Yeah, the coaching staff could be doing other things and resting players that we need for the playoffs more because the regular season isn't as important. Of course it is. I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Anyways, Mike needs to give others more time. Lets see Alando get 10 minutes. Let's see Banks' 'great' defense. But, we need some kind of change.

[fixxxer]

D'Antoni: Hmm, maybe Skinner and Amare should see some floor time together after all.

The immortal Colonel James from Boogie Nights: Oh, you think so, doctor?

[OE]

Giving up?

Didn't we do this with KT in '05-'06, with great success?

Just keep Barbs in the starting lineup and start using Banks or Tuck off the bench, and I think we'll be just fine.

By "fine" do you mean "okay?" As in "good enough to be the #2 seed in the Pacific?" As in "good enough to be the #5 seed in the playoffs?"

You know, I really don't care about the record, I don't like what I'm seeing. Even when we were sitting pretty at 4 losses, a lot of us were complaining. Some fans chalked it up to high expectations. Now we've gone 3-5 over the last 8. It's not like the other teams in this league are as good as they'll be either, so improve as we might, it certainly doesn't seem like we're good enough to get over the hump. Hell, I don't think we'll get to the hump.

As others have said, it starts and ends with shooting outside shooting. If the lane's clogged, Nash can't penetrate, Amare can't score, and we're toast. I'm sorry, but as good as Grant Hill's been, he can't hit the long ball. Marion's lost it. Our offense isn't good enough to make up for our defincies on defense anymore and D'Antoni's scheme has come apart.

We can't transition to being a defensive squad without a personnel move. Also, we can't revert to a purely offensive squad without a personnel move. As I look around the league, I don't see a whole lot of trade possibilities. So the truth is, we need to make a trade, but we can't. So I guess we'll have to be content with being "fine."

[v9]

Difference between Frank Johnson and Mike D'Antoni: while FJ started stubborn and remained stubborn, D'Antoni starts stubborn but becomes flexible.

He's done this before, when he scrapped the trapping defense for straight man-on-man defense.

Maybe D'Antoni can salvage this season - and his job.

[Mori_Chu]

I bet we blow the Clips out. Suns had their pride wounded by the Lakers and will take it out on LA's other team.

Kaman will probably get big numbers against us, but the Clips just don't have the firepower to keep up with us, even this year's faux-run-n-gun team.

Banks should be in the rotation, especially since Nash is in such obviously poor health. Limit Nash to < 30 minutes until he's feeling better.

[sunsdotcom]

latest from dantoni

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/PhoenixSunsPodcast/~5/206861445/ktar_dantoni_071226.mp3

[JustWinBaby]

If Coach D really wants to go big - we really need a bigger roster.

The Fix

Marion and Barbosa

For Miller and Gasol

If Memphis is really thinking about blowing that team up - they can save a ton of dough and we add very little if any through next season.

We Then would have a Front Court of Gasol Marion and Skinner - which should hold its own much better than Marion in the equation against the bigger teams. We all love Shawn, he just ain't big enough to play the 4.

Our Back court gets bigger as well with Miller replacing Barbosa - plus we get a 40% lifetime and 43% this year 3 point shooter - that is averaging 7 Rbds and 3.9 assists this year.

A lot of people do not like Gasol, I am with those that think he may be just tired of losing and playing in front of small crowds. He is very talented IMO and is BIG.

This leaves us with still a question as to whom would back up Nash. Let Boris play the position, that is what he likes to do and is comfortable in the roll of running the offense + we get bigger.

We lose speed an atleticism but gain better defense in the paint and better shooting. We could actually maybe stay even on the boards against somebody.

We again lost the rebound battle against the Lakers by 9 I think.

We have to be on the way to set a record as being the worst rebounding team in history.

4/5 Gasol Amare, Skinner, Boris
2/3 Hill, Miller, Boris and Bell
1/2 Nash, Boris and (DJ or Banks)

This team would rebound, defemd and shoot a better %, while possibly scoring less points.

I would prefer to keep LB but he will undoubtedly be required to get anyone of quality in return. If Memphis would take Marion and Boris - done deal.

[frezix]

oh God another trade...

[Velo]

we have a thread for trades already.

[Uncle_Gene]

Going big is Suns' next step - AZCentral

WHAT'S FREAKING NEW ????????

Y'ALL KNEW I WAS GONNA COMMENT ON THIS ONE.........RIGHT ??

I said it already, the Suns ARE NOT shocking teams anymore with smallball. The "good" teams have caught up. Even if Marks isn't a defensive center he can hit perimeter shots, play him. It's time for Skinner to start. Glad to see D'Antoni learning.

[ethan_cohen]

Gene wants the paint fixed!

Now! (I got your back Uncle G)

[Dustbuster]

All I can say is, "We'll see". D'Antoni has made a lot of noises in the past, but when we are losing, he panics and goes small, smaller, smallest in a desperate attempt to get the kind of runs we did in 04-05. He likes to stay in his comfort zone.

The biggest problem, as others have pointed out, is the size limitations that we all lamented about during the offseason and the front office pretended there was no such problem. We are no longer even the best team at playing small-ball. Hmmm, I wonder if KT would have been any help against Bynum?

If the news could get any worse: the Hawks just won their fifth in a row and currently stand at 4th in the East. They are 8-2 over their last 10 and seem to be clicking. I'm afraid Al Horford was the missing piece. If only we had gotten that pick last year and somehow added him to the Suns...

Even more surprising: Portland has won 11 straight? Isn't that like the second longest winning streak of the season from any team?

The most depressing thing for me as a fan is that I see so many teams that seem (at the moment) to have a brighter future than the Suns. The Suns players for the future (Amare, Barbosa, Diaw) all have question marks around them. We have very few draft picks over the next three years. We haven't been developing anyone (I haven't read of much effort going into Tucker and Strawberry other than sending them to the D-League). We are financially limited from making many strategic moves. We can't seem to address the actual needs on our team (back-up PG, bigs, shooters). All of our eggs seem to be in the basket of either this season or perhaps the next, and we seem to be a more dysfunctional team than we have been the last three years.

Please, can one of the optimists come to my rescue and point out the fallacy of my logic?

[tbrkingofthesouth]

I love Amare's quotes...Nash is changing completely from calling people out to now saying we need to shut up and play, but we need more than that.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

Dust I agree

[MTSunsFan]

We lack the big men to go big and we lack the shooters (or for some reason our shots just aren't falling this season like the past few years) to go small. BUT we still have the talent to make up for these short comings IMHO. Someone pointed out that during the Laker game it seemed as though we got away from the run & gun and seemed to be just walking the ball up the floor more often then we usually do and I couldn't agree more. The Suns are some of the best conditioned players in the L. Let's get back to :07 seconds or less and run the opposition out the building...

[k_kwan]

Difference between Frank Johnson and Mike D'Antoni: while FJ started stubborn and remained stubborn, D'Antoni starts stubborn but becomes flexible.

He's done this before, when he scrapped the trapping defense for straight man-on-man defense.

Maybe D'Antoni can salvage this season - and his job.

hmmm....last I checked we were second in the west and D'Antoni's job had never been in doubt? Someone might be jumping the shark a little too early but that's just my opinion.

[bobster]

actually, i don't know why people keep saying shooting is a suns' weakness -

they're 1st in the league in scoring [109.7 points]
they're 1st in field goal percentage [49%]
they're 6th in three-point field goal percentage [37%]
and they're 1st in adjusted field goal percentage [54%]

what really kills them is that they're....

27th in points allowed [104.9]
25th in field goal percentage allowed [46%]
30th in offensive rebound percentage [21%]
27th in defensive rebound percentage [70%]
30th in total rebound percentage [46%]

the suns main problems are -

A - they can't stop their opponents from scoring around the basket
B - they can't consistently get rebounds when their opponents miss shots

the real problem is that they went into the season thinking they could hold their own in the paint with just stoudemire, diaw and marion getting the lion's share of the minutes at PF/C. out of necessity they've played skinner more, but they're still under-sized with stoudemire and diaw trying to guard centers and marion trying to guard power forwards.

bad defense is the main reason for their disappointing play. it's a lot easier to run when you're running off rebounds and turnovers rather than pulling the ball out of the bottom of the basket.

[v9]

If Coach D really wants to go big - we really need a bigger roster.

Marion and Barbosa

For Miller and Gasol

IMHO, Barbosa shouldn't be going anywhere. As a starting 2-guard alongside Nash, Barbosa's looking like a top-10 SG even if he is quite undersized. Sure, he has defensive lapses - but a bigger front line should help protect the basket.

If the Suns are really trying to go big, Marion's the odd-man out. Marion is a great PF for small-ball lineups. However...

With Skinner on the floor, the Suns need an SF that is a consistent outside shooter, and their need for Marion's rebounding diminishes substantially. Grant Hill is a better SF for that role.

Not sure if I'm advocating a Marion trade (again)...but I'm sure disgusted that Marion's shooting has gone from bad to worse.


If the news could get any worse: the Hawks just won their fifth in a row and currently stand at 4th in the East. They are 8-2 over their last 10 and seem to be clicking. I'm afraid Al Horford was the missing piece. If only we had gotten that pick last year and somehow added him to the Suns...

Breaks my heart to think of the damage Horford could have done on this team. Let's not go there anymore...the Suns are truly cursed.


hmmm....last I checked we were second in the west and D'Antoni's job had never been in doubt? Someone might be jumping the shark a little too early but that's just my opinion.

If the team blew up, D'Antoni would be part of the blow-up.

[ShelC]

Theres an article from East Valley Tribune that i cant post for some reason....heres the juicy part from it:


Suns general manager Steve Kerr and the rest of the personnel team have used the last run of games as an evaluation tool, and a 3-5 record with wins over Utah, Tony Parker-less San Antonio and Toronto might not be enough to instill confidence.

There appears to be at least a peripheral disconnect between Kerr — a staunch believer in defense and depth — and D’Antoni’s high-octane offense/tight rotation mantra that will also play a role in the decision-making.

[Wormwood]

Bold predictions:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

The big three will be broken up before the end of the year as Kerr forces a trade for a defensive minded big through.

[MTSunsFan]

Bold prediction:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

I'll give you D'Antoni being fired is a bold prediction. The rest, not so much...

[desertcoast]

Bold prediction:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

Prediction:
1 month from now, Worm's prediction will be widely considered not so much bold as safe bet. :wink:


I love the idea that D'Antoni is becoming flexible ( ie..has listened to an earful from Kerr) and is considering a bigger front line.
That still doesn't suddenly mean Amare is a defensive factor. Someone needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Stat and get his defensive IQ up a notch or two.

MTSunsFan: Your sig line "Lakers mood: Depressed and humiliated " is sadly in error right now.
In fact, they are quite happy with themselves right now......dammit

[bobster]

Bold predictions:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

The big three will be broken up before the end of the year as Kerr forces a trade for a defensive minded big through.


i tend to agree if there's as big a difference in philosophies as the tribune article leads us to believe.

and i don't think marion would be to far behind because he's the only tradeable asset they have that would bring a big man of some quality. plus, i think stoudemire's trade value is probably nlower than his value to the suns. stick him at power forward where he doesn't have to guard the playewrs like boozer, perkins, bynam, duncan, yao, etc. every night and i think he would show a little more consistance because he won't be getting into so much foul trouble.

of course you also need to be of the mindset to get him more shots. at the number of shots attempted so far -

barbosa - 393
marion - 362
hill - 342
stoudemire - 341
nash - 340
bell - 243
diaw - 188
skinner - 91

it would seem to make more sense to get the hightest percentge shooter - stoudemire - more shots. especially since he draws fouls, and when he gets more involved offensively it seems like his entire game improves.

[bobster]

Bold prediction:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

Prediction:
1 month from now, Worm's prediction will be widely considered not so much bold as safe bet. :wink:


I love the idea that D'Antoni is becoming flexible ( ie..has listened to an earful from Kerr) and is considering a bigger front line.
That still doesn't suddenly mean Amare is a defensive factor. Someone needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Stat and get his defensive IQ up a notch or two.

i think it's a mistake to think amare will ever become more than an adequate man-to-man defender. he can be a good help defender though. they just need to get him off the better interior players because they're just killing amare and boris inside. [and although boris is a good post defender, he's just giving up to much size against the centers]

as for d'antoni's flexibility, let's wait until we see it before we give him credit for it.

[MTSunsFan]

Bold prediction:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

Prediction:
1 month from now, Worm's prediction will be widely considered not so much bold as safe bet. :wink:


I love the idea that D'Antoni is becoming flexible ( ie..has listened to an earful from Kerr) and is considering a bigger front line.
That still doesn't suddenly mean Amare is a defensive factor. Someone needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Stat and get his defensive IQ up a notch or two.

MTSunsFan: Your sig line "Lakers mood: Depressed and humiliated " is sadly in error right now.
In fact, they are quite happy with themselves right now......dammit

I still don't think it should be Amare's responsibility to suddenly become this defensive monster. I think it's up to the front office to get a big body to play next to him, allow him to move back to the 4 thus freeing him up to do what he does best -- score the ball and often...

And yes, dc. My sig is waaaay out of date (it's a headline from last year's playoffs I believe). Especially considering they are only 1 game behind the Suns in the Pac. conf. standings. I will make a change a.s.a.p.

[zara_drummer]

Theres an article from East Valley Tribune that i cant post for some reason....heres the juicy part from it:


Suns general manager Steve Kerr and the rest of the personnel team have used the last run of games as an evaluation tool, and a 3-5 record with wins over Utah, Tony Parker-less San Antonio and Toronto might not be enough to instill confidence.

There appears to be at least a peripheral disconnect between Kerr — a staunch believer in defense and depth — and D’Antoni’s high-octane offense/tight rotation mantra that will also play a role in the decision-making.

Kerr knew this coming in...He's been behind the scene since Sarver took over, so I dont understand why this would be a big deal now?? Unless he feels like he can do something about it...

Is this the beggining of the end for Mike D?? The dissention from top to bottom is unsettling...Even though Kerr hasnt said anything publicly, we all know from his broadcast days that he outwardly criticized the Suns for playing the way they do...

I mean what has Mike D really done anyway?? We havent won a ring, and even though we've been close we've never been to the finals...Despite that...I fully blame him for the revitalization of the scoring and running style of play that has changed the league though...since Mike D and Nash were paired up scoring has been on the rise and teams have adopted a more open style of play...He's not a pioneer but you have to give him credit for sticking to what he believes in.

[Wormwood]

Yeah, D'Antoni brought the fun and gun, unfortunately there have been a series of bad things (not all his fault) that have hurt our ability to play this system, including the loss of JJ, the signing of Banks, the regression of Boris, Atlanta getting Horford instead of us, the trading away of all our draft picks so we have no youth movement to keep up with fast young teams like Atlanta and GSW.

Now we have a system, but not the right guys to implement it.

Shawn can't shoot the three and struggles to defend many of the lrger 4's
Amare can't protect the paint or defend the post
Hill's not a spot up 3 point shooter from anywhere but the corner.
We never even tried finding a back up PG who had a pass first mentality

[zara_drummer]

Think about the trades we've made...and the players we've gotten...None of the players we've gotten over the last couple years with the exception of Diaw came from trade...

All of the other players we've gotten have been FA...or Rookies.

I think teams see the Suns coming and close the door in their face when it comes to trades. No one wants to make the Suns better...Trading draft picks and cash to us doesnt make us better...so they'll do that...

I dont think its a matter of us not trying to get good personel...I think it has more to do with the other teams just not wanting the Suns to get any better than they are...and who the eff wnats banks anyway?? lol

[v9]

stick him at power forward where he doesn't have to guard the playewrs like boozer, perkins, bynam, duncan, yao, etc. every night and i think he would show a little more consistance because he won't be getting into so much foul trouble.

Someone said recently that Amare could be an all-time great PF (i.e. Malone playing next to Eaton, Duncan playing next to Robinson), but was being hampered by playing center. Worth repeating...


There appears to be at least a peripheral disconnect between Kerr — a staunch believer in defense and depth — and D’Antoni’s high-octane offense/tight rotation mantra that will also play a role in the decision-making.

An ideal fit: an team of younger players that plays D'Antoni offense, but has the energy and stamina to play the kind of pressing defense George Karl used in Seattle. Now, they can even play zone.

Given the players we have, use Marion to pressure the ball on defense. Wonder why D'Antoni has never tried this.

[JustWinBaby]

I really have heard enough crap about Amares problems on defense.

1. Will he ever win defensive player of the year, no.

2. How much help does he really get from his little buddies - I suggest virtually none. You can inlude Shawn as getting no help as well. Amare often is the only one in the paint trying to try stop a drive or get a rebound. Marion usually is out on the perimeter guarding Nash's assigned man and is in no position to block out, get a rebound or help against the other teams bigs. Much of Wednesday night he was guaring Kobe. Marion is what I would call a junk rebounder. He gets them off defections, bad bounces via pure hustle. He rarely retains position to block out and get rebounds. The question is should he? The answer is he can't due to being all over the floor and he really is not big enough. The number of rebounds Marion gets really is amazing based on the things he is asked to do.

3. Some say Boris is a good defender - please. He does not hustle. He does not rebound. He has no passion. His man always scores on him and he always has that shit grin on his face like he is surprised that he could possibly be scored on. Boris is the biggest problem in this whole mess and needs to go or he has to get his act together. Oh I have said that before. How were his minutes against Bynum? I guess not so good, he is supposed to be a 4/5 but only got 15 minutes.

4. More consistent minutes of Amare and Skinner on the court together - could help in many ways. The most important benefit could be that Marion can do Marion things and Boris can remain on the bench.

Bottom line Amare needs help, he is not Bill Russell.

I have suggested some trades that potentially could be made. Would they help - maybe.

Shawn seems to be thinking about other things a lot of the time as well, something just is not right. His shooting has been just horrible both three point shooting and free throws. He also probably has the most trade value on the team. Plus there is a good chance he will be gone this off season anyway, for nothing. He and Boris are the likely candidates to be moved if there is any moving to be done.

To suggest trading Amare at this point though is just plain stupid.

For those that want to 2nd guess the trading of Amare for Garnett. I did not want to do it then and support him now.

Marion and Boris on the other hand ................................................

Both are available to be traded for the right piece or pieces IMO.

My preference is that we stay with what we have.

If we somehow can figure out how to block out and get our rebounding together we should be just fine. How long have we been saying this. Overall better defensive numbers will follow.

Go Suns

[Wormwood]

JWB,

There's nothing wrong with Marion's defense, other than being 6-7. He just doesn't have the size to really defend PFs who have a back to the basket game. Fundamentally, he plays defense about as well as could possibly be hoped for.

Boris defense is overrated, though IMHO. He doesn't slow post players down much, and he's too slow to deal with the quicker SF's out there. There aren't a lot of guys out there whom I'd be comfortable leaving Boris on one vs. one.

Barbosa's defense is good, but suffers a bit against large SG's. AGain, not his fault per se, just a matter of being undersized. Fundamentally, his defense has improved by leaps and bounds over the past three years.

Amare's defense, however.... his rotations have improved a bit, hence the rise in blocked shots. However, his one on one post defense is atrocious. He doesn't hold position, doesn't alter shots, and he allows people to move laterally against him. It's amazing that so few of KT's lessons rubbed off on him.

Nash is pretty bad, but he still does some things smartly. He knows his quickness from a standstill sucks, so he's always moving, and tends to back off guys to prevent the drive. When guys do drive, he anticipates whre they will end up and gets a lot of charges. He also does a good job steering driving players into help defenders. The latter is a skill that more athletic guys like Banks have yet to learn.

[desertcoast]

Yeah, D'Antoni brought the fun and gun, unfortunately there have been a series of bad things (not all his fault) that have hurt our ability to play this system, including the loss of JJ, the signing of Banks, the regression of Boris, Atlanta getting Horford instead of us, the trading away of all our draft picks so we have no youth movement to keep up with fast young teams like Atlanta and GSW.

Now we have a system, but not the right guys to implement it.

Shawn can't shoot the three and struggles to defend many of the lrger 4's
Amare can't protect the paint or defend the post
Hill's not a spot up 3 point shooter from anywhere but the corner.
We never even tried finding a back up PG who had a pass first mentality

Pretty good summary of the situation, and I don't see us pulling off a trade that isn't just a bandaid. I'm not sure I want to see the Suns of the late 90s that ended up being a kludge of bandaid trades resulting in a team of mixed identities.

Ask PJ Brown to come back for extra depth inside, and have a braintrust meeting with Mike, EJ and Kerr on the best way to modify the approach to best use the assets we have. I don't see a "saving trade" coming anytime soon.

[MTSunsFan]

Bob Young's blog:


A different purple power?
It was the purple elephant in the middle of the Planet Orange living room, and ABC's Bill Walton finally pointed it out.

The Lakers have supplanted the Suns as the top challenger to San Antonio in the Western Conference, Walton told ABC viewers during halftime of the network's Christmas Day broadcast of the Suns-Lakers game.

The Dallas Mavericks may ultimately have something to say about that, but evidently the Suns do not after losing to the Lakers for the second time in two meetings this season.

As the game wore on, analyst Jeff Van Gundy also cast a vote for the Lakers, saying that if the two teams met in a playoff series the Lakers would win because they're the more balanced club.

And analyst Mark Jackson piled on, too, saying the Lakers now have more talent than the Suns from top to bottom.

As much as we might like to argue, the proof was in the Christmas pudding.

Walton said the Suns miss Kurt Thomas, and they do. He gushed over Lakers center Andrew Bynum, and the Suns made Bynum look so good he almost lived up to Walton's hyperbole.

He said the Grant Hill move won't work out, and we have to disagree with that one. Hill has worked out beautifully so far. Unfortunately, he has made the Suns better only at what they already were good at — scoring.

Not that Hill can't play defense. He can. But he can't guard the basket. Neither, evidently, can any of the club's big men.

The Lakers' final possession of the third quarter really stood out. Kobe Bryant got the ball near midcourt and the Lakers spread out, isolating Bryant on Raja Bell. When Bynum came over to set a high pick, Bell adjusted to Bryant's left hand, expecting help from the middle of the Suns defense.

He wasn't going to get it.

Bryant drove straight down the lane as Hill took a swipe at the ball and Boris Diaw napped peacefully on the baseline.

As Bryant threw down a reverse dunk, Bell raised his palms skyward as if to say, “What the heck?”

He could have been speaking for all of us.

The Suns just completed a fairly demanding eight-game stretch with a 3-5 record that included a victory at San Antonio, but there's only one thing to conclude from it:

They've got a nice team. They don't have the championship team that we thought they had.

Something is missing. Maybe it's that as-yet-unexplained “chemistry problem.” Maybe the rest of the league simply has adjusted to what the Suns are doing. Maybe Amaré Stoudemire isn't buying into playing center anymore. Or defense.

Whatever, the Suns no longer break teams with their pace or three-point shooting.

And although they never were a good rebounding or defensive team, they had a knack for getting a big rebound or making a defensive stop when they really needed it. They don't anymore, and sometimes aren't especially interested in trying.

The Lakers, meanwhile, may have a lot more than even Bryant expected when he demanded to be traded.

After beating the Suns, Bryant told reporters, “We have a solid foundation. We've got length, we've got speed, we have quickness, we have shot-blocking, we have guys that get after the ball and steal it, we have playmakers … ”

And, he might have added, the Suns' number.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/BobYoung/13395

[singh]

my biggest criticism of D'antoni is his refusal to develop playersbecause he is so married to his 8 player rotation. There were so many times last year that we were up by 20 with 5 minutes to go....He coulda played someone other than James Jones. Take san antonio for instance, Beno Udrih played a good amount his first two years, as has Darius Washington Jr and Oberto. Phil Jackson has developed Farmar and Bynum and Sasha.


We haven't taken the dust off of Strawberry, tucker, banks (as pathetic as he is, he needs time) I just wish that over the last few years we could have groomed an heir apparent to Nash etc...you know?

[Shabazz]

Does anyone know where to find in-depth shooting statistics? Cap? Worm?

I'd be curious to see Marion's shooting %s from 5 feet, 10 feet, 15 feet etc from this year and years past. Other than a few of those baseline turnaround flip-shots he hits, and 27% of his 3s I don't think I remember him scoring from outside of the paint all that much this year. He used to have a nice mid-range game.

Since we've already offended him to the point where he's requested a trade, maybe we can take it a step further and tell him to stop shooting 3s altogether and just start cutting to the freakin net.

[JustWinBaby]

JWB,

There's nothing wrong with Marion's defense, other than being 6-7. He just doesn't have the size to really defend PFs who have a back to the basket game. Fundamentally, he plays defense about as well as could possibly be hoped for.

Boris defense is overrated, though IMHO. He doesn't slow post players down much, and he's too slow to deal with the quicker SF's out there. There aren't a lot of guys out there whom I'd be comfortable leaving Boris on one vs. one.

Barbosa's defense is good, but suffers a bit against large SG's. AGain, not his fault per se, just a matter of being undersized. Fundamentally, his defense has improved by leaps and bounds over the past three years.

Amare's defense, however.... his rotations have improved a bit, hence the rise in blocked shots. However, his one on one post defense is atrocious. He doesn't hold position, doesn't alter shots, and he allows people to move laterally against him. It's amazing that so few of KT's lessons rubbed off on him.

Nash is pretty bad, but he still does some things smartly. He knows his quickness from a standstill sucks, so he's always moving, and tends to back off guys to prevent the drive. When guys do drive, he anticipates whre they will end up and gets a lot of charges. He also does a good job steering driving players into help defenders. The latter is a skill that more athletic guys like Banks have yet to learn.

Worm

I do not think Shawn is the problem by any means or a bad defender. He certainly is shooting piss poor this year. That is his only downfall.

He is who we think he is.

He is an active athletic defender that when right causes all kinds of problems for our opponents.

Amare actually is similar, in that he goes through spurts of steals, block shots and dives to the floor. I am not saying Amare is as good as Shawn but is some respects he plays similar.

Amares and Shawns problems are they BOTH do not have the proper help around them.

Hill is fun to watch but he does not help at all where we need the most help - in the paint. Boris has been just horrible.

We have seen our opponents just take it to both Amare and Shawn relentlessly until they get them in foul trouble. If Shawn and Amare do not foul they get killed on the boards due to being undersized and out of position trying to stop the opponents offense.

I have been a big supporter of Skinner and have been wishing that somehow Kerr can get either PJ Brown or someone else like him to share time with Skinner so that we can let Amare and Shawn do their thing. I actually think we could get real good on defense real quick without decimating this roster. Skinner as the Starter and a PJ Brown as his replacement from the bench would be my dream. I would not mind seeing Marks at this point but am not pushing for it.

Thank goodness it is just December and we have time to tinker.

I also think LB should be the starter, that should get us off to better starts.

My wish is that Coach D trys this for awhile not just one night.

Skinner
Amare
Marion
LB
Nash

Bell
Hill
Boris
Marks
Banks

My bet is that there is no immediate change and that Skinner will still come off the bench. The starting lineup will still not include him or LB and will remain the same. Shortsighted IMO and afraid to mess with the egos of Hill and Raja.

[Uncle_Gene]

Suns don't have the 3point shooting power anymore. Hill is a scorer, James Jones is a shooter. He helped spread the floor. Piakowski shouldn't have gotten a 2-yr deal and if Marks wasn't gonna be given a chance he shouldn't have been re-signed.

[Shabazz]

If we were to make a change to the starting lineup, I don't think we should add both Barbs and Skinner, just Barbs. I think taking Hill out of the lineup for Skinny, while making us bigger, is too much of a talent drop-off.

I know Barbs has a tough time guarding the bigger shooting guards in the league, but I'd argue that Bell has a tougher time guarding the Ben Gordon's of the league. Bell is definitely a better one-on-one defender but as Worm mentioned, Barbosa has improved in that dept. and is better at playing the passing lanes.

The thing is Barbs makes us so much faster and so much more dynamic offensively. He and Bell are probably pretty even in terms of 3 point shooting, but Bell's offensive game is limited to spot up shooting, occasionally leaking out on the fast break, and the rare pump-fake and drive. Barbosa's offensive game is so much more complete.

Also, swapping Barbs for bell doesn't make us that much smaller. bell is about 1 1/2 inches taller, but Barbosa's arm lenght pretty much negates that difference and Barbosa is even a slightly better rebounder per 40 min.

Of course this is all moot, because no way D'Antoni send our "heart and Soul" to the bench.

[v9]

Maybe Amaré Stoudemire isn't buying into playing center anymore.

Bullseye. If I were Amare, I'd lack motivation as well. Why would anyone play hard if:

(1) He was the most efficient scorer on the team, and rarely got the ball?

(2) He's an undersized defender on larger centers - consistently?

(3) Rarely got help underneath the basket?

(4) The referees really had it out for him?

(5) Most importantly - playing for a system that he is losing confidence in?

Amare's the kind of guy who has to BELIEVE in something to give 100%. That makes him difficult at times - yet, if you can make him into a believer, he'll give everything to the cause.

[v9]

If we were to make a change to the starting lineup, I don't think we should add both Barbs and Skinner, just Barbs. I think taking Hill out of the lineup for Skinny, while making us bigger, is too much of a talent drop-off.

My ideal starting 5:

Nash
Barbosa
Grant Hill
Amare
Skinner

The problem with playing Marion is his atrocious shooting. In a half-court set, you need to be running Nash-Amare pick-and-roll in the lane. With Skinner as a decent mid-range shooter, you need two legit 3pt threats. Barbosa is certainly legit. Hill is better. Marion has become atrocious.

In a fast break, Barbosa, Amare and Hill are exceptionally fast for their positions. Skinner also runs the floor extremely well. You still get a secondary break because everyone can hit the mid-range jumper.

Will they bench Marion? No. However, it is clear that Marion has a reduced role in a big-ball lineup, even if they limit Hill to 30 mpg (like they should).

[ShelC]

My wish is that Coach D trys this for awhile not just one night.

Skinner
Amare
Marion
LB
Nash

Bell
Hill
Boris
Marks
Banks

Thats actually been rolling around in my head. You add Skinner for defensive purposes but throw in Barbs to keep the speed and shooting up in the starting lineup. Put Hill on the bench and hopefully, with Boris, they can play smarter basketball with Bell in the 2nd unit as opposed ot Barbs being the main guy and either chucking up shots, turning the ball over or not getting anyone else involved. I dont think Marks or Banks get any time. Maybe if Barbs is in the starting lineup and we have bigger players in Hill and Boris handling the ball, then Banks can get some run off the ball, being set-up for offense.

I dont think trades or firings are coming, but a lineup tweak could go a long way. One main problem i see with starting skinner tho, is that MikeD wont regard him as a starter who deserves legit minutes. He'll start Skinner, but 2-3 minutes into the game, he'll pull him and go back to his normal lineups, basically making Skinner a bench guy again and seeing no more than 18-20mpg.

[Uncle_Gene]

Bob Young's blog:


Something is missing. Maybe it's that as-yet-unexplained “chemistry problem.” Maybe the rest of the league simply has adjusted to what the Suns are doing. Maybe Amaré Stoudemire isn't buying into playing center anymore. Or defense.


http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/BobYoung/13395


Bottomline (as I've already said for the past few weeks), teams HAVE caught up and the weakness in the paint can't be hidden anymore.

[k_kwan]

Bold predictions:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

The big three will be broken up before the end of the year as Kerr forces a trade for a defensive minded big through.

Bold predictions indeed, i know this is your usual logical cynicism at play worm. I'll definitely be keeping these bold predictions tucked nice and neatly in my memory. If things are as bad as you always assume they are to be in march and april, then I'll be one of the first to point out how right you were.

And alot of peoples assertations of change needing to be done player wise before the end of the trade deadline could very well happen I'm not discounting it.

But I'm still in a wait and see mode with this team. If the team is able to pull it self out the rut which for some reason I believe they will. Then I'm going to definitely be the first one calling you out on your bold predictions.

[Wormwood]

If things continue in the direction they are going now, we'll be experiencing a 1st round exit. There are too many teams out there that look like they have the upper hand on us (SA, GSW, LAL, NO Hornets, probably Dallas). If Kerr and D'Antoni aren't seeing eye to eye, there's going to be more friction.

On top of that, the FO has completely destroyed our ability to rebuild by amassing bad contracts that are completely immovable right now (Diaw, Banks) and ditching our draft picks (If we tank, Seattle ends up being the best franchise in the history of the NBA...).

I don't know what we're going to do if this trend continues... If rebuilding comes, we're going to have to do it Minnesota style by giving away superstars (along with bad contracts) for expiring contracts and draft picks. Something along the lines of Marbury/ Penny for expiring drek.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

Amare at the 5 is not going to win a championship ever..I said it b4 Duncan needed help in the paint w/Robinson Malone Eaton Bark West..Why is Amare forced to do something that a real coach would not even ask of him?

[y2jjedipimp]

i totally agree with the lack of rotation and failure to develop talent comments that everyone has mentioned. All the good coaches have found a way to develop talent as well as remain a championship calibur team. The Pistons developed Maxiell as well the the names already mentioned from the other teams. Who's to say that even IF we did get that lottery pick last year that he'd even be playing right now. I'm not convinced if we had landed Durant that he'd even get consistant PT. Sounds crazy, but is it really?

good point earlier about how we normally dont get guys from trades but from developing them ourselves. I have been thinking that in the back of my mind for some time now. I'm glad someone else noticed as well. We are aren't known as being a very good trade team. I think about the likes of Hot Rod Williams, Sam Cassell, and Cheap Shot Bob (feeling queezy?) We have made some good value trades in the past when we traded for Outlaw. What did we trade? Jud Buechler and got a draft pick in return as well?

other than that we've given a ton of picks away.

Deng, Sergio, Rondo, Rudy Fernandez while keeping the rights to guys like Milos Vujanic. Zarko instead of a David West or Travis Outlaw. Casey Jacobsen instead of Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, or Dan Gadzuric. Dijon Thompson instead of Amir Johnson or Kelenna Azubuike (getting clammy yet?)

I realize alot fo those names were passed up by other teams as well but still...
maybe its what we had coming for finding such gems as Nash, Marion, and Stoudamire as well as turning Joe Johnson into a star.... I dunno. I've been thinking about this post for over an hour while at work. It just seems we have gone away from doing what makes the Phoenix Suns the Phoenix Suns it seems starting with how we get talent. I know some of that gets sacrificed when buidling a title contender but it just seemed some of those sacrifices could have been avoided with a little more consistancy.

More Random thoughts on consistancy:

We wanted a big guy like KT to play next to Stoudamire...then we didnt want him...then we used to keep our draft picks and develop them...then the talent we wanted didnt pan out so we just stopped keeping our picks all together...we wanted to keep Joe Johnson then we didnt...we made what we thought was a good trade to get rid of him but then maybe we just got fooled again with a declining Diaw and and declining draft pick position. We steal a guy like James Jones who can shoot the lights out (allegedly) and put him into a system he should thrive in and he flounders miserably trying to find his game then we pay Portland sto take him from us and now he's lighting it up in Portland!?!? shooting 54% from long range hitting 4 treys in 4 of the 5 last games he played (commence uncontrolled vomitting now). We used to be able to squeeze blood from a turnip now we cant squeeze it from an undercooked steak.

And our owner Sarver? First we thought he was cheap for letting Joe go. Then he wasnt by resigning Diaw and Barbosa, but then there was the draft pick fire sale. Then he gave away our only player who could gurad Duncan, along for 2 first rounders to a future conference rival. But then he says he still wants to win it all...so what is it? are you cheap or are you a champion? I am confuzed.

I guess after spending like 2 hours on this post, because like i said im at work, I'm kind of confuzed as to who the Phonix Suns are right now. Can somebody help me figure that out?

[sehan]

With all this talk about breaking the team up - how big is that game 5 suspension.

Here is a big bold prediction - spurs made virtually no change. We upgraded our starting roster in my opinion (Skinner over Kurt and Hill over Jones). We are smarter and older with cooler heads.

We will surfer through early injuries and other issues and heat up in April in May to win the Championship, despite the fact that we don't have the number one record in the league. Gee - kind of short of the way Spurs did it last season.

[Superbone]

Bold predictions:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

The big three will be broken up before the end of the year as Kerr forces a trade for a defensive minded big through.

What's a "defensive minded big through"?

[JustWinBaby]

With all this talk about breaking the team up - how big is that game 5 suspension.

Here is a big bold prediction - spurs made virtually no change. We upgraded our starting roster in my opinion (Skinner over Kurt and Hill over Jones). We are smarter and older with cooler heads.

We will surfer through early injuries and other issues and heat up in April in May to win the Championship, despite the fact that we don't have the number one record in the league. Gee - kind of short of the way Spurs did it last season.

I sure hope you are right.

We are spoled tho 60 + wins is kind of hard to not like especially if you can't stare at Championhips banners in your rafters.

To be redundant our biggest problem has been and is Rebounding and 2nd chance points. If we can just figure out how to at least get even in that Stat we should have a fun ride come April.

[Superbone]

That still doesn't suddenly mean Amare is a defensive factor. Someone needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Stat and get his defensive IQ up a notch or two.

Wouldn't that be a "come to Black Jesus" meeting?

[Wormwood]

With all this talk about breaking the team up - how big is that game 5 suspension.

Here is a big bold prediction - spurs made virtually no change. We upgraded our starting roster in my opinion (Skinner over Kurt and Hill over Jones). We are smarter and older with cooler heads.

We will surfer through early injuries and other issues and heat up in April in May to win the Championship, despite the fact that we don't have the number one record in the league. Gee - kind of short of the way Spurs did it last season.

We may have upgraded on paper, but the pieces aren't fitting together. It's almost like we took a jigsaw puzzle, threw away two pieces, and replaced them with two pieces from a more expensive puzzle. Theoretically, the value of the set we have is worth a little more now. Problem is, even if the two pieces fit, they're not part of the same picture.

[JustWinBaby]

Bold predictions:

D'Antoni will be fired before the start of the 2008-2009 season. The unit we have now is not capable of winning it all due to it's defensive and rebounding defeciencies.

The big three will be broken up before the end of the year as Kerr forces a trade for a defensive minded big through.

What's a "defensive minded big through"?


That is the Million Dollar question

Give us a name.

If he is that good who would let him go?

Every player in this league has faults and they are all brought out after his team starts losing.

[ShelC]

We may have upgraded on paper, but the pieces aren't fitting together. It's almost like we took a jigsaw puzzle, threw away two pieces, and replaced them with two pieces from a more expensive puzzle. Theoretically, the value of the set we have is worth a little more now. Problem is, even if the two pieces fit, they're not part of the same picture.

What are u talking about? We got rid of JR and KT and replaced them with Hill and Skinner. At the worst, we broke even but in reality we came out on top. We have the pieces IMO, we're just not utilizing them correctly because our coach is still trying to play like its 04-05.

A better analogy would be something like trying to run an XP software program with a Millenium operating system. The program may run, but not without some glitches and conflicts. Or it may not run at all. The operating system needs to be updated. But maybe the owner is just stubborn and either doesnt want to change the operating system for fear of losing all the porn on his harddrive....or he just doesnt know how to change the operating system.

[JustWinBaby]

Not to continue to bring up a broken record but .........

PJ Brown

The Bulls had him last year now basically they are left with Wallace trying to defend the paint by himself.

They are struggling.

Amare and Shawn need more help.

[INFORMER]

Marion and Barbosa

For Miller and Gasol


I'm not sure Memphis does that deal, I don't think Phoenix should.


He said the Grant Hill move won't work out, and we have to disagree with that one. Hill has worked out beautifully so far.

Hill's is a very good player. PERIOD. So of course he'll help the suns. Problem is that he plays a smaller position and he just isn't a 3-point shooter. Also, I don't know what Walton meant by the Hill move won't work out, but the obvious thing I see is the injury bug. It was a no-brainer to sign him, but it may prove fool-hardy to rest championship hopes on him.



actually, i don't know why people keep saying shooting is a suns' weakness -


. . . they're 6th in three-point field goal percentage [37%]. . .


Actually, that's a problem. The USns need to be close to the top in both 3 point makes and percentage by a pretty substantial margin to make smallball work.


He's an undersized defender on larger centers - consistently?


I call crap on this, because Amare is no more undersized than Marion is, and the players Amare plays against are more times than not vastly inferior in talent. Amare's size is not the issue when it comes to his ability to man the 5, IMO.

[JustWinBaby]

{I call crap on this, because Amare is no more undersized than Marion is, and the players Amare plays against are more times than not vastly inferior in talent. Amare's size is not the issue when it comes to his ability to man the 5, IMO.}

Both Amare and Marion are undersized and both struggle covering their man in the paint.

[MTSunsFan]

Amare's size is not the issue when it comes to his ability to man the 5, IMO

Then what is the issue, Inf? Just curious...

[INFORMER]

Amare's size is not the issue when it comes to his ability to man the 5, IMO

Then what is the issue, Inf? Just curious...

It is just the type of player he is. I don't he is as bad as many make him out to be, but at the same time, he just isn't a monster on the boards or defensive presence as others are. There are/were plenty of players Amare's height or even smaller that are/were better at dominating the boards and defending the interior.

[MTSunsFan]

I couldn't agree more, Inf. Undersized 5? Not necessarily. But I do think he would be better off moving back to the 4 and being paired w/ a defensive-minded, rebounding big so he can be free to dominate on offense -- since we know he has those skills in spades...

[v9]

A better analogy would be something like trying to run an XP software program with a Millenium operating system. The program may run, but not without some glitches and conflicts. Or it may not run at all. The operating system needs to be updated. But maybe the owner is just stubborn and either doesnt want to change the operating system for fear of losing all the porn on his harddrive....or he just doesnt know how to change the operating system.

Good analogy.

[ShelC]

I couldn't agree more, Inf. Undersized 5? Not necessarily. But I do think he would be better off moving back to the 4 and being paired w/ a defensive-minded, rebounding big so he can be free to dominate on offense -- since we know he has those skills in spades...

See i dont know about Amare moving to the PF spot now. I think he'd have more trouble defensively since theres more talent overall at the 4 spot. Then theres the offense. If we dont have a 5 that can step out and shoot, or be useful at all offensively, then we lose firepower. We're better defensively, but that goes against MikeDs philosophy. But lets say Amare is our 4 right now in this offense, is he hanging around the perimeter like Shawn does? Players have to be moved around accordingly.

We may not see Amare at the 4 spot until after this current run is thru and Kerr can really put his mark on the franchise and team. Then we may see a more traditional lineup and offense built around Amare, facing up 16ft out on the wing ala Bosh, Dirk, Odom, etc.

How do we envision Amare playing anyway? Do we want a back-to-the-basket game like Boozer or Howard? Do we want him facing up and attacking like Dirk and Bosh? These things need to be figured out.

[Miamisun]

The problem I see is that we are seeing some of these promising kids that we used to beat down handily coming of age. Not that any of our players are not any good, but these kids are hungry and out to prove themselves. I remember in 93-94 we would just get waxed by young teams. We didn't panic and we chugged along nicely. I agree that we need to add some new wrinkles to our team to stay ahead of the youngsters. Going big will bring a much needed toughness to the team. Those that criticize because Amare has the highest FG%, but not the highest number of shots need to remember that if Amare was to stay on the court longer he would lead the team in shots. We need to play him at PF more and keep him out of foul trouble.

[OE]

INF, I don't see Amare keying in on playing his man and his man alone night in and night out, and that's because he can't. He's trying to cover the lane by himself - penetration, slashers, and his man. He can't do it. He's 6-9 and the "PF" next to him is 215 lbs. It's ridiculous - unless we plan on nailing at least 10 3s a night at a high percentage.

The problems are myriad. It's not the coach, but the personnel. There isn't a coach in this league who could make these pieces fit to form the picture of the trophy.

These are the things we have to do:

1. Make Nash/Amare the focal point of the offense in the starting line-up. This means we put at least two shooters out there with them. If we decide to get defensive, make the fifth player a center. If we decide to go all offense, get another shooter who can crash the boards at least a little. I prefer the first of these options.

2. Make Grant Hill or Boris Diaw come in the game almost exclusively in place of Amare and let one of them handle the offense with a more purely defensive squad. I suggest we use Grant Hill because he's the better player, in which case we should endeavor to trade Boris.

3. If we have no other option, start both Bell and Barbs because they can both shoot the long ball. Get them a back-up or two who can do the same. Though that team is small, if we put a center out there with them, it will cover up many a deficiency.

4. All things considered, we should trade Shawn Marion unless he can somehow rediscover the ability to drain a 3. I've watched him bog down our offense on too many nights, and he can't help Amare defend the paint. Trade him for a center or for a shooter.

Of the 7-8 players D'Antoni uses in his rotations, we have only 5: Nash, Barbs, Bell, Hill, and Amare. Skinner's been nice, but he's not really what we need. Did you see Bynum dunking all over him? That's because Skinner, also, is not a center. Neither is he a long range shooter. Those are the things we need, with the possible inclusion of a back-up PG - for which, IMO, we should consider Marcus Banks since he's evidently improved his J (.375 for the year, though it is a small sample size). That leaves Shawn, Boris, and everything else we have available for trade. And that isn't much. Then again, if we concentrate our efforts on, say, Dalembert and the number of good shooters that may be available via trade (Korver, M. Miller, Giricek, etc.) we may be able to get something done.

You know, I didn't think much of it at the time, but boy do I wish we still had James Jones on this team. For those who want to see the coach fired, Jones should be exhibit B (next to the contrast in shot attempts for Barbs and Amare). There must have been some reason why, playing with the best PG of the decade, his shot just wouldn't fall like it's been doing in Portland.

[ShelC]

There isn't a coach in this league who could make these pieces fit to form the picture of the trophy.

I dont agree with that. Flip has the Pistons running but still manages to get Chauncey posted up, Rip posted up, Sheed posted up, gets Afflalo some minutes, theyve developed Maxiell as a low 1st round draft pick. Avery has a mix of different guys on his team yet still gets the most out of them offensively because hes willing to adjust and go to mismatches or whoevers hot during a stretch. And at the end of the day, they know Dirk is the go-to guy.

Our pieces actually would work together well if we had some legit halfcourt offense we could rely on and some sets to get Hill a midrange shot, Amare a post up, Raja a 3, Shawn a cut to the basket. But we dont do that. Its pick and roll all the time, dribble penetration and a kick out. Defenses know to collapse and then run us off the 3pt line. Its not folling anyone anymore.

We have no go-to guy when we need a shot. Its pick and roll with Nash and Amare, then a kick out to a shooter, dribble penetration then a kick out to a shooter. Whoever has the best shot or has the ball at the end of the shotclock shoots it. You cant expect to be consistent with that kind of offense late in games and late in possessions.

Ive only seen us run plays to get Hill his midrange jumpers once and that came against the Knicks, where he just so happened to have his best game of the year. Coincidence?

[Shabazz]

Coro's latest blog:

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/13411


It can't be the offense but . . .


The Suns are not lacking for scoring. The problems are obviously defensive.

Yet, there are still these portions of the game where the ability for the offense to be consistent is an issue.

The Lakers never went more than two possessions without scoring Tuesday. The Suns would go on nearly unstoppable stretches, scoring 25 in the first half's final 5:28 or 19 in the game's final 5:47. But at critical times where Phoenix could assert itself or keep a game within a possession, it slipped away and it's not just those hard-to-watch stretches when Steve Nash rests.

With the game tied 76-76 in the third quarter Tuesday, Phoenix had a scoreless stretch of five missed shots and three turnovers. The Suns tried one shot in the paint -- a Boris Diaw miss. Without Nash, the Suns did not score for the two minutes of the fourth quarter and got down eight, never able to get to within a shot again.

For many, this would beg the idea of feeding Amare Stoudemire more for high-percentage shots and the ability to draw fouls and get the opponent in the bonus. That means Stoudemire can't settle for the jumper, which at times he is very comfortable taking because of how much it's improved.

For about a 16-minute stretch of the Tuesday's second half, Stoudemire did not have a field goal attempt (although he did get fouled once on a shot).

Asked about his lack of touches, Stoudemire said, "C'mon, that's nothing new."

And then of all the shots you did not want to see, Stoudemire took a three-pointer out of a time out at a critical juncture -- Phoenix trailed 114-107 with 2:24 to play. But again, aggressiveness would be all the difference. Although it was not the play's design, the three-point miss was a clean look and Stoudemire can hit the shot. However, Grant Hill had set a backscreen on Andrew Bynum, leaving a clear path to the basket for a Stoudemire dunk.

When Shawn Marion picked up a charge on the next trip, the Suns were left with too little time to rally and the Staples Center began to fill with chants of, "Phoenix sucks."

Ouch. Arguments can be made either way. The Suns are either one game from being the best team in the West or one game away from being second best in their division.

BLOGBACK ...

In response to the idea that people are turning on Stoudemire and allowing Diaw back in the good graces, I disagree. I don't think most people, at least the ones I hear from, would agree that Diaw is playing like a madman. If anything, they would love to see him play like a madman. Bob Young pointed on the perfect example with that Kobe Bryant dunk at the end of the third quarter. Bryant was 20-some feet away from the basket when he made his move and Diaw never came from under the rim to help. His offense wasn't much better. As I've mentioned before, be careful what you wish for with Diaw being more aggressive. He has taken eight or more shots in each of the past four games but is 12 for 37 from the field. Offense really isn't Phoenix's problem but offense without Nash on the floor is and that's not helping, not to mention that other players like Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire want more chances to score.

You absolutely nailed it as far as Stoudemire's defense, or lack there of it. It's bad enough that every opposing big man turns into Tim Duncan (and Tim Duncan turns into MVP Tim Duncan) but the lack of help defense is just as glaring, especially because there are going to be defensive mismatches for Steve Nash at point guard. As others have pointed out, Stoudemire does not show much of a grasp for defensive nuances yet about positioning, leverage, hedging, fronting, etc. A lot of people theorize that he misses Marc Iavaroni and I don't disagree. But on the other hand, Iavaroni had all this time with him and Stoudemire is where he is. The one thing Iavaroni provided was an ex-player who had played the position and would work with him one on one (playing) in practice. The message from the coaches is probably the same but the delivery is different.

BY THE WAY ...

The latest All-Star balloting returns are out and it looks like Steve Nash's goodwill in China was only appreciated so much. Nash is third among West guards, about 137,000 votes behind the second starting spot that would currently go to Houston's Tracy McGrady. T-Mac is a nice player but you've got to believe that many of those who are voting for Yao Ming in China are also picking his teammate, McGrady. Two starters for a losing basketball team would be pathetic.

Stoudemire is a distant second to Yao for centers and Marion (sixth) and Hill (10th) are out of the race among forwards.

I love Coro's opinion blogs. He's got as much access to the team as anyone and when he doesn't have to remain objective, he's got some good insights.

Very much agree with the part about Diaw's defense. Diaw is actually better than Amare at bodying up bigger players, but his help D is pretty weak.

[desertcoast]

How do we envision Amare playing anyway? Do we want a back-to-the-basket game like Boozer or Howard? Do we want him facing up and attacking like Dirk and Bosh? These things need to be figured out.

at what point do we say Amare's athleticism is what it is, or it's still got headroom?

I'm wondering if the coaching staff isn't ready to commit to how to use him until they know what they've got. If he gets his legs back, I want him facing up. Lately he's pretty hot and cold, and maybe more touches will clarify that.

Coach sould see enough in practice to know where he's at....but I sure can't get a read on it.

[v9]

See i dont know about Amare moving to the PF spot now. I think he'd have more trouble defensively since theres more talent overall at the 4 spot.


Agree with DC here. The Suns can do what every other team in the league does...use their better defensive player (usually the center) to guard the better post-up player, and hide the weaker defender on the non-threat.



Then theres the offense. If we dont have a 5 that can step out and shoot, or be useful at all offensively, then we lose firepower. We're better defensively, but that goes against MikeDs philosophy. But lets say Amare is our 4 right now in this offense, is he hanging around the perimeter like Shawn does? Players have to be moved around accordingly.


Skinner's mid-range jumper is (barely) adequate for that purpose.



How do we envision Amare playing anyway? Do we want a back-to-the-basket game like Boozer or Howard? Do we want him facing up and attacking like Dirk and Bosh? These things need to be figured out.

More like Bosh than anyone else, IMHO. As Amare gets older, though, he will need to develop a back-to-the-basket game as his athleticism deteriorates.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

I couldn't agree more, Inf. Undersized 5? Not necessarily. But I do think he would be better off moving back to the 4 and being paired w/ a defensive-minded, rebounding big so he can be free to dominate on offense -- since we know he has those skills in spades...

See i dont know about Amare moving to the PF spot now. I think he'd have more trouble defensively since theres more talent overall at the 4 spot. Then theres the offense. If we dont have a 5 that can step out and shoot, or be useful at all offensively, then we lose firepower. We're better defensively, but that goes against MikeDs philosophy. But lets say Amare is our 4 right now in this offense, is he hanging around the perimeter like Shawn does? Players have to be moved around accordingly.

We may not see Amare at the 4 spot until after this current run is thru and Kerr can really put his mark on the franchise and team. Then we may see a more traditional lineup and offense built around Amare, facing up 16ft out on the wing ala Bosh, Dirk, Odom, etc.

How do we envision Amare playing anyway? Do we want a back-to-the-basket game like Boozer or Howard? Do we want him facing up and attacking like Dirk and Bosh? These things need to be figured out.


Amare has slimmed down a bit from last season...I know he can guard Dirk now...He couldn't do that b4..Amare is not a Center..The man is a PF...Our starting front line is too small...Amare is our most efficient scorer, but he is so under utilized in D'Antoni's offense..We need a Big real C..Like someone said earlier we aren't even the best at small ball anymore...Kerr pls make a move for a big and another shooter please?

[Miamisun]

problems are defense? Hmmmm....wasn't that what Coach Ivaroni was handling all the previous years?

[INFORMER]

Does anyone think Cleveland would trade Damon Jones for Marcus Banks?

[sunsdotcom]

thoughts re the suns

i think amare's size is fine for a center. he's just a bad defender. period. whether guarding decent centers OR power forwards. hakeem had the same size and height as amare's and we'd be a much more decent team on defense and rebounding if olajuwon's our center instead of amare. i think david robinson would also thrive in smallball with marion because of his quickness and athleticism.

[misteradiant]

...when we are losing, he panics and goes small, smaller, smallest in a desperate attempt to get the kind of runs we did in 04-05...We are no longer even the best team at playing small-ball...I'm afraid Al Horford was the missing piece. If only we had gotten that pick last year and somehow added him to the Suns...Even more surprising: Portland has won 11 straight? Isn't that like the second longest winning streak of the season from any team...I see so many teams that seem (at the moment) to have a brighter future than the Suns...question marks around them...very few draft picks...haven't been developing anyone...financially limited...a more dysfunctional team than we have been the last three years.

Please, can one of the optimists come to my rescue and point out the fallacy of my logic?

your logic has robbed you of the ability to experience the magic of these moments. that's a fallacy in my book.

look for it to be for sale some day. it's called "how to cry and still kick their ass."

remember the spurs record last year? how everybody was saying they were slow and old? well, we're faster and still younger and i see no reason why this can't be our year.

[OE]

remember the spurs record last year? how everybody was saying they were slow and old? well, we're faster and still younger and i see no reason why this can't be our year.

Remember how the spurs had already won two championships with that same line-up? Yeah. I thought you could.

In all seriousness, we can't hit the long ball, so we can't make up for our lack of size by raining threes any more. Seriously. It's a problem.

[JediSkywalker]

thoughts re the suns

i think amare's size is fine for a center. he's just a bad defender. period. whether guarding decent centers OR power forwards. hakeem had the same size and height as amare's and we'd be a much more decent team on defense and rebounding if olajuwon's our center instead of amare. i think david robinson would also thrive in smallball with marion because of his quickness and athleticism.

Hakeem was a 7-footer. Amare does look small standing next to 7-footers. Hakeem was a better defender. Amare is a better offensive player, who should not be made to carry the load of defense. I do believe size plays a role. Not every 7 footer would pose a problem for Amare, but against good centers who are 7 plus, he is going to struggle because he has to use up more energy (and the fact that it is not his preferred position is an issue also).

[sunsdotcom]

Hakeem was a 7-footer.

he's 6-10. he was listed as 6-10 in the 80s and the 90s.


Amare is a better offensive player,

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

[misteradiant]

remember the spurs record last year? how everybody was saying they were slow and old? well, we're faster and still younger and i see no reason why this can't be our year.

Remember how the spurs had already won two championships with that same line-up? Yeah. I thought you could.

In all seriousness, we can't hit the long ball, so we can't make up for our lack of size by raining threes any more. Seriously. It's a problem.

yeah, i remember those injuries that sidelined their starting 2-guard one year, and who can forget the year bowen tore his calf and that other year when duncan and horry were suspended for that game against kobe, shaq and the lakers.

:roll:

we've been fucked in the unlubricated ass by luck for the past 3 years. we would have won it either time. the spurs have had no such calamities. so no, i don't remember those two championships the same way as you do.

[JediSkywalker]

Hakeem was a 7-footer.

he's 6-10. he was listed as 6-10 in the 80s and the 90s.


Amare is a better offensive player,

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

Check out this Wikipedia link. Hakeem is listed as 7-0 ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon

[LazarusLong]

Hakeem was about 6-10 1/2, and even admitted so.
He also learned from two great offensive post players ... Elvin Hayes and Moses Malone. Hayes lived in the Houston area and Malone had a home in Houston from his Rockets days. As much as STAT has progressed offensively, which is considerable, he still has a ways to go before he gets to the Dream's level. Hakeem at his apex was a much more decisive player on offense ... the ball went into the post and Hakeem either made a move or passed it back out. STAT still holds the ball, sometimes.
The mistake being made is to consider STAT a center. He's evolved now as a power forward with a reliable outcourt shot. He can play some low block on offense, but he's better from the high post/elbow.

[ShelC]

STAT still holds the ball, sometimes.

I was watching the Raps and Spurs play last night during commercials for the suns game. Here are two plays...you tell me which one is made by Amare and which is made by Chris Bosh:

Scenario 1: The bigman is about 12-13ft out on the wing, gets the entry pass and faces up. His head up as he swings thru to face the basket, he looks to see how the defense is playing him, waits for the 2nd defender to come. Keeping the ball high he keeps looking, never loses his balance on his strong pivot foot, sees a teammate cutting baseline and bounces a pass along the baseline just as that teammate flashes uncovered underneath the basket for a reverse layup. As complicated as this may sound it was all done in one motion, seemingly slow motion, as the bigman never panicked, never lost his balance and quietly trotted back upcourt as if he just shot a FT.

Scenario 2: The bigman is posted up, gets the entry pass. He doesnt turn and face, opting instead to hold the ball over his head with his back to the basket, almost facing the baseline. He never sees the 2nd defender and is quickly trapped along the baseline about 12ft from the basket. Keeping the ball over his head for about 3-4seconds, he's swiped and groped at by the two defenders. Finally, hes able to break free and stumbles awkwardly towards the basket, bailed out by a foul and luckily getting the shot up and having it fall for a possible 3pt play.

Both plays resulted in scores but one was a legitimate basketball play.

[EDC]

Here is a key point. In scenario 1 all of the bigmans teammates are not just standing at the 3 point line with dumb grins on their faces. Thus the ability to hit a cutter.

[ShelC]

Even if they were cutting, would the bigman see them if hes got his back to them? And if theres a 2nd defender then someone has to be open, right?

[SpecialSauce]

Well which one was which?!?!? Spill the beans!!

[Phoenix219]

I don't know, but from the way things usually are around here, I'd say #1 was Bosh and #2 was our fuck up, right? :still wondering if i'm being sarcasic or not: lol