Wed. News: The Lakers show they're for real [Archive]

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 09:49 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&id=3168228

The Lakers show they're for real

By J.A. Adande
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: December 25, 2007

LOS ANGELES --- At this rate it won't be long before the Lakers will have a rivalry with the Phoenix Suns.

We can't say that yet, at least not if we adhere to the regulations once set forth by Kobe Bryant. After the Lakers beat the Sacramento Kings in that draining 2002 Western Conference finals, I asked Bryant if the Kings were the Lakers' biggest rivals. He said I couldn't use that word. "They've got to beat us in the playoffs first," Bryant said. "C'mon, you know the rules."

So maybe the Lakers' 122-115 victory over the Suns at Staples Center didn't change the terminology, and maybe Suns Coach Mike D'Antoni could afford to say "This doesn't bother me," seeing how it came in the regular season.

But after the Suns bounced the Lakers from the playoffs the past two seasons, the Lakers finally look ready to take a seven-game series from them for the first time since Steve Nash arrived in Phoenix.

That's one revelation from this game. The other is that Phil Jackson looks incredibly goofy in a red bow tie. Hopefully it will be banished to the bottom of a dresser drawer.

We have a solid foundation. We really do. We have length, we have speed, we have quickness, we have shot-blocking. We have guys that can steal the ball. We have playmakers. It's looking very solid.

--Kobe Bryant talks about his L.A. Lakers

But the thing that's likely to make another appearance come playoff time is Andrew Bynum. If he's going to put up numbers like this -- a career-high 28 points, 12 rebounds, four assists and two blocked shots -- he gives the Lakers the perfect weapon to go at the Suns' size weakness. "He's a handful," Suns forward Shawn Marion said. "They've got a legitimate big man."

Phil Jackson and Bryant did their best to provide the disclaimers. They remember how the Lakers stumbled to a 42-40 record after being 13 games above .500 at one point last season, and they haven't forgotten Bynum's fade after a promising start last year.

"We just want to maintain what we are about," Jackson said. "Every game, come out and play that kind of game, show consistency. At the end of the year, if is the MVP, then we'll say what a great year he's had."

With Bynum in the frontcourt [b]along with Lamar Odom (who pounds the Suns on the boards and had 14 more rebounds Tuesday) the Lakers forced the Suns to go with a big lineup of Amare Stoudemire, Brian Skinner, Boris Diaw and Marion for a long stretch in the fourth quarter. That kept one of Phoenix's top 3-point shooters (and primary Kobe defender), Raja Bell, on the bench.

The other thing that's changed from Lakers-Suns games in the past is Phoenix's domination at the point guard position. To paraphrase Rose Royce, Smush don't live here anymore. Sure, Nash still gets the check in the matchup box, but with the return of Derek Fisher and the improvement of Jordan Farmar, the difference isn't as pronounced as it used to be. Last year, Nash outscored Parker by an average of 22 to nine. In two games so far this year -- both won by the Lakers -- Fisher has the difference down to a respectable 22 to 17.

Bynum also exposed Stoudemire's slow defensive rotations and reluctance to box out. And Bynum and Fisher negate the arrival of Grant Hill -- especially after new Laker acquisition Trevor Ariza helped keep Hill to only two second-half points. (How about Ariza, making the most of his first Lakers start and 33 minutes to get 14 points, seven rebounds and the highlight of the game: throwing down a dunk over a planted Hill the way Kobe did Nash a couple of years ago).

Ariza's athleticism, Bynum's height, Fisher's vet presence ... what are we leaving out? Oh yeah, Kobe. He was the superior superstar in the end, outperforming Nash and taking over the fourth quarter when he scored 12 of his 38 points.

You still won't get him to gush about this team. At one point he nearly apologized for his basic, "Belichicky" answers that sounded a lot like the hooded coach. But Kobelichick did allow that: "We have a solid foundation. We really do. We have length, we have speed, we have quickness, we have shot-blocking. We have guys that can steal the ball. We have playmakers. It's looking very solid."

It's looking like a team that can compete with the Suns, whom they trail by only one game in the Pacific Division and shouldn't fear if they meet in the postseason. D'Antoni didn't sound panicky. "I think we're pretty good," he said. "Last time I checked we were one or two games off the lead in the West." Notice that, unlike the testy exchange at the end of their last meeting, he didn't talk about busting the Lakers in the playoffs.

J.A. Adande is the author of "The Best Los Angeles Sports Arguments." He joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 09:58 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7603532?print=true

Clear winner in battle of young big men
By Charley Rosen

Updated: December 25, 2007, 11:23 PM EST

GAME TIME: Lakers 122, Suns 115

The two marquee players in any contest between these teams would ordinarily be Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant. And their respective performances certainly had dramatic impacts on the final score. Credit Kobe with 38 points, and Nash with 24 points to go with 14 assists.

However, a less-heralded contest was fought between one of the NBA's certified young studs — Amare Stoudemire — and an even younger player — Andrew Bynum — who just might surpass Stoudemire on his way to developing into the league's premier center.

Furthermore, since most ballgames are decided in the paint, there's every reason to examine the individual contributions of these two bigs, along with their head-to-head confrontations, as evidenced over the course of the game at hand.

Player FGM-A FTM-A 3PM-A REBS AST STL BLK TO PTS
Stoudemire 6-11 7-10 0-1 6 2 0 2 1 19
Bynum 11-13 6-8 0-0 12 3 0 0 3 28

Here's the score in their mano-a-mano battles:

ADVANTAGE STOUDEMIRE

# Scored on a dunk when Bynum paid too much attention to a driving Nash and couldn't recover.

# Hit an open 18-footer when Bynum repeated the same error.

# Cut to the hoop when Bynum turned his head on defense, caught a lob pass from Nash, and completed another dunk.

# Trailed a semi-break and, with Bynum concentrating on stopping Nash's penetration, was fouled by AB.

# Beat Bynum down court on a break and converted still another slammer.

# Blocked an awkward post move by Bynum that had the Lakers' center on his tip-toes and unsure what to do with the ball.

# When Bynum was confused on his defensive assignment, Stoudemire cut to the basket and was fouled when his opposite number arrived on the scene too late to do anything else.

# Within the last 20 seconds, and with the game already decided, Stoudemire scored on a 10-footer off an offensive rebound, and also hit one of two free throws when he drove hard to the ring.

Overall, Stoudemire was mostly passive and rarely attacked Bynum's defense. Subtract the three meaningless points he scored in the waning seconds (and also the offensive rebound), and Stoudemire's numbers were totally unimpressive.

Perhaps Stoudemire's head was hanging because Santa Claus had disappointed him.

ADVANTAGE BYNUM

# Three times Bynum slipped screens and wound up with points — two dunkers, and then a pair of free throws after Stoudemire fouled him.

# Bynum overwhelmed Stoudemire with his perpetual assaults on the offensive glass. AB totaled eight offensive rebounds (to Stoudemire's two), and on one play went up three times to snare the carom. In another battle of the boards, Bynum simply tore the ball out of Stoudemire's hands.

# Bynum slipped into an open lane whenever Stoudemire made too strong a show toward a penetrating guard, and took advantage of the open space by turning two interior passes into dunkers.

# Drew an offensive charge on Stoudemire through sheer hustle in an early-offense sequence.

# When Stoudemire was suckered into approaching Bryant, Bynum slipped to the basket and wound up with a throw-down.

Overall, Bynum out-jumped, out-hustled, out-desired, and completely out-played Stoudemire. Bynum did so to the point where he actually embarrassed the Suns' two-time All-Star.

Even more humiliating was the way Bynum treated Brian Skinner: Scoring on a nifty change-of-direction that led to a right-handed jump hook. Executing a backdoor cut that eventuated in a dunk. Grabbing a lob pass when Skinner tried to front him (and the Suns failed to supply weak-side help) and turning it into still another dunk. Trailed a fast break and ran himself into guess what ...

On defense, Stouduemire routinely overreacted to the ball and failed to maintain himself in a recover mode. Meanwhile, Bynum menaced layup attempts by Skinner, Shawn Marion and Leandro Barbosa — and caused all of them to miss. By ferociously attacking an otherwise open jumper by Grant Hill, Bynum also saved the Lakers two more points.

Additional bases of comparison: Bynum set five exemplary screens to Stoudemire's two. Ignoring foul-shot situations, Bynum executed five sturdy box-outs to none by Stoudemire. And they each forced two shots/drives.

The decision goes to Bynum by a TKO. But Stoudemire will have numerous chances to pick himself up, dust himself off, and go after Bynum again.

For his sake, and for the sake of Phoenix's championship dreams, Stoudemire had better bring his A-game or he'll continue to be posterized by young Bynum.

SwingMan

12-25-2007, 10:05 PM

(Knee jerk knob slobbing above. Nothing more. I like Adande's writing and style, but he's REALLY showing his L.A. Times roots there.)

Lakers too strong for Suns (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1225suns.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/pics/1225sunscov.jpg
The Suns' Amaré Stoudemire works against LA's Andrew Bynum, who had a career-high 28 points.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 25, 2007 08:43 PM

LOS ANGELES - Check the Pacific Division standings.

It still says "Phoenix" one line above "L.A. Lakers." But does it feel like that anymore?

Few are ready to strip the Suns of their elite contender status but Phoenix is offering reasons to do so. The Suns, after suffering their season's worst defeat to the Lakers last month, let the Lakers pull within one game of the division lead Tuesday when Kobe Bryant scored 26 second-half points and Andrew Bynum had a career-high 28 points to lead the Lakers' 122-115 victory at Staples Center.
http://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gifhttp://www.azcentral.com/imgs/clear.gif

Phoenix has lost five of eight games, followed wins with losses three consecutive times and is a .500 team (7-7) against teams in its conference. The downward turn from 16-4 coincided with a run of better teams and one of the league's most road-intensive schedules. Playing for a team tied for the most wins in the West (19) after a third of the season, Suns center Amaré Stoudemire sounded as if he found coal in his stocking after a game in which his man, Bynum, hurt Phoenix badly.

"We talk about a lot of different things but we've got to go ahead and do it," Stoudemire said. "It's time out for excuses, time out for pointing fingers. It's time to go ahead and do it.

"It's pretty much a will factor. You've got to want to do it. ... This sucks, man. I don't like losing to the Lakers at all. I feel like we're a better team. We've got to go out there and prove it. We can't say we're a better team. We can't say our roster's more in-depth than theirs. They won both games this season so far. Right now, they're a better team."

Tuesday's game showed why the Lakers improved from last year, when Kwame Brown and Smush Parker were starting at center and point guard. Now, the 20-year-old Bynum is breaking out and Derek Fisher (15 first-half points) is running a more steady point. With Luke Walton (ankle sprain) out, newly acquired forward Trevor Ariza scored 14 in his first start.

It did not matter that Phoenix had a second consecutive first half of more than 60 points and only two turnovers because the Lakers matched the tally. That only set up Bryant, who scored on Phoenix whether Raja Bell and Shawn Marion made it difficult or not. Phoenix never had a chance to tie in the fourth quarter, only getting the deficit to 112-107 with 2:39 left before giving up an Ariza dunk, having Stoudemire miss a three-pointer out of a time out and then surrendering a Bynum layup.

"We keep thinking that the next time out, it's going to magically show up and it doesn't work like that," Bell said. "You have to work at that and continue to work before it translates into that chemistry …It's hard to walk around proud as a peacock when you're not getting the wins you want."

Forward Grant Hill had a glass half-full view because his team is nearly atop the West.

"We're not playing our best basketball but come May, nobody cares about December," Hill said.

Stoudemire did, talking with an edge rarely heard.

"We can't let them feel that confidence," he said of the Lakers. "They've got the upper hand. They've got the stamina. They've got the momentum. They've got everything on us right now. We have to turn it around and it starts against the Clippers (on Thursday)."

Key numbers

26: Second-half points by Kobe Bryant, who finished with 38 points and moved past Tom Chambers into 30th place on the career-scoring list. 1996: The last time the Suns played on Christmas. They lost to the Lakers, 108-87. The Lakers played on Christmas Day for the ninth straight year. 27: Consecutive games started by Suns forward Grant Hill. It's his longest streak to open a season since he started the first 39 games for the Pistons eight years ago.

Report

Cheers

Suns guards Steve Nash and Raja Bell made 9 of 16 three-pointers to keep the Suns in the game at times.

Jeers

Opposing big men, step right up and get your career game here. Tuesday was Andrew Bynum's turn with 28 points vs. Phoenix.

Player of the Game

Lakers guard Kobe Bryant made 9 of 13 shots in the second half for 26 of his 38 points.

View from press row

How did we get from Kobe Bryant having bigger fish to fry and wondering if Raja Bell's mother didn't hug him enough to this? How did it go from Bell having no respect for Bryant and calling him pompous and arrogant to what happened in Tuesday's second quarter? On an Amaré Stoudemire foul, Bryant went to the ground and right there to help him up was Bell. Bryant then patted him on the butt in appreciation. "I don't really have a problem with Kobe," Bell said. "It's part of the job to be physical and be a competitor and try to beat somebody but any further than that, I've got no problems."

-- Paul Coro

Chrissakes, that right there is the damn problem. ALL of 'em are too fucking nice - like, $2 whore nice.....

ShelC

12-25-2007, 10:13 PM

Our problem is a lack of urgency, focus and maturity. Nash, Bell and Hill get it. Shawn, Amare, Boris, LB dont get it. The championship caliber teams and players bring it everynight at tip-off and are focused, sharp and with it for 48 minutes. They beat the teams theyre supposed to beat. They know how to prepare mentally for the game. Shawn and Amare dont know how to do that. Boris doesnt want to and LB is too young to understand. Thats our team.

JediSkywalker

12-25-2007, 10:21 PM

Amare is being consistently outplayed by the big men of the other team. Is Dantoni so complacent that he still believes he has a great team, or just too stubborn to make any changes?

Clearly Skinner is not the answer to the Suns big man defensive need. I think it's up to Kerr at this point to either write off the whole season or take an action to save it and give this team at least a chance to make the NBA finals (where they will be creamed by Boston or Detroit).

ShelC

12-25-2007, 10:25 PM

Clearly Skinner is not the answer to the Suns big man defensive need.

We've been fooled to think he was. Hes a journeyman 3rd stringer. A great pickup for cheap and is great at what we're asking him to do but hes not scaring Dallas, SA, LA or Utah. Its not fair to expect him to pick up so much slack.

JackArse

12-25-2007, 10:28 PM

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 10:39 PM

expectations, expectations...

JediSkywalker

12-25-2007, 10:40 PM

anyone else ever notice, when a team beats the suns, it's front page on every sports page there is, but when we beat someone else it's usually hidden near the bottom if it's shown up front at all? even if it's a bigger team?

I noticed that when the Suns beat the Spurs in SA. There was just a little corner on the front page with it. In the sports section it was not the top news. It was at the bottom of the front page. I was disappointed. (I am talking of the AZ rep)

darrkin

12-25-2007, 10:43 PM

Dont everyone start sucking off the Lakers quite yet. Good thing about this is that its still early, and we are not peaking..maybe this will force some changes which i think we all know we need. Simply to start, Raja gets benched. We go after a shooter from Dleague or small trade...also maybe time to look at bigger trade to get rid of Marion. His lack of shooting is killing us. Not sure we can or would trade Stat, wouldnt get fair value, due to his injuries, and also, not sure we really want to, big men like him are hard to come by. Id rather build team around him and Nash and Hill, everyone else including coach are expendable

Xcon

12-25-2007, 10:44 PM

Sorry Charlies Rosen, but Bynum is not "on his way to developing into the league's premier center". That title belongs to a monster kid over in Orlando that I wish we had on our team.

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 10:52 PM

Big men tear up Suns

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 25, 2007 09:51 PM
LOS ANGELES - This 3-5 stretch for the Suns started with Minnesota's Al Jefferson matching his career high with 32 points and then saw Miami's Shaquille O'Neal have his best game of the month.

New Orleans backup Hilton Armstrong had a season-high 11 points off the bench. San Antonio's Tim Duncan, a game after scoring eight, had 36 points in his second game back from injury.

Dallas' Erick Dampier, a consistent non-factor in Suns' games past, scored eight in the first seven minutes. And in the past two games, Toronto's Chris Bosh (42 points) and the Lakers' Andrew Bynum (28 points) each had career highs.

All were big men. Most were guarded by Amaré Stoudemire. There was a reason Bynum played 42 minutes of Tuesday's 122-115 victory, in which he made 11 of 13 shots.

"It was out of necessity, basically," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "You have an advantage. You have scoring capabilities. He was a threat that kept their defense on edge."

The Suns can become unraveled defensively from the inside out.

"That's where our weakness is, no doubt," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said.

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 10:56 PM

L.A. trade Bynum? Must be Kidding
Paul Oberjuerge
Article Launched: 12/25/2007 09:10:18 PM PST

LOS ANGELES - Someday, we'll all look back and laugh.

Trade Andrew Bynum AND Lamar Odom for Jason Kidd? Gotta be kidding.

Bynum and Odom for Jermaine O'Neal? Can't be serious.

Bynum ALONE for Kidd or O'Neal?

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Actually, it's already time to laugh. Right now. Laugh out loud.

Let's see, the best 20-year-old center on the planet for a point guard pushing 35? For a malcontent, injury-prone semi-big man on the back side of his career?

Can we give some credit to Lakers management here for not trading Andrew Bynum? You know, the kid who only happens to be the Future of the Franchise. The guy Kobe Bryant wanted gone, like, immediately, for Kidd or O'Neal only last season. Heck, only last month.

Bryant might still be The Man, but the past three seasons conclusively demonstrated Kobe can't get out of the first round of the playoffs by himself.

He needs a big assist - about 7feet of it. With agility, athleticism and fine motor control.

Kobe needs Andrew Bynum. More than Bynum needs him, given that Kobe has about 200,000 miles on the odometer and will be entering his decline phase any minute now.

Bynum, meanwhile, is just out of his teens - and just beginning to find his footing as a dominant center in a league where size matters.

He scored a career-high 28 points and took 12 rebounds against Amare Stoudemire in the Lakers' 122-115, message-sending Christmas victory
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over their nemeses, the Phoenix Suns, in a game the Lakers don't win without Bynum's increasingly dominant presence in the paint.

It was only the latest in a series of Bynum performances so impressive that the idea of these Lakers playing well into May no longer seems ridiculous, even if Bryant's recent insistence Bynum be traded now does.

"I think he's got an unlimited future," Lakers consultant Tex Winter said of Bynum. Winter was only the latest (and most astute) to scoff at a Bynum-for-Kidd deal.

"Even as good as Kidd is, I don't believe he can have the impact on a team that a big man can have, like Bynum. And I think that's what the Lakers staff saw, and they were reluctant to make a trade.

"It's hard to come by a guy who has the physical abilities that Bynum has, as young as he is."

Even Mr. Tough Love, coach Phil Jackson, who compliments Bynum only when he absolutely has to - such as when the kid has put up another 20 and 10 - concedes Bynum is making strides.

"He was a real force out there for us," Jackson said. "His scoring capability, he kept their defense on edge."

Bynum isn't a finished product - not by a long shot. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar continues to work with him, and he needs it.

Bynum's back-to-the-basket game is limited. He still commits silly fouls.

But Bynum has all the tools: an ability to catch the ball while moving to the basket, a knack for catching lobs at their apex and throwing down dunks, an aptitude for quick putbacks, the innate timing to block or change shots, a nice touch at the line.

He also is in far better physical condition. The teen who once huffed and puffed after a few trips down the court, a guy mocked by Jackson before the game ("He actually broke out on a run the other night.") now is keeping up with events, thanks to rigorous offseason conditioning.

He played a game-high 42 minutes Tuesday and said, "I feel like I could play another game right now."

He also is smart enough to credit his teammates for his success.

"They got the ball to me down low; I had no choice but to dunk," he said with a smile.

Among the NBA's young centers, only Dwight Howard rivals Bynum for raw talent. And Howard is 22.

Jackson balks at classifying Bynum among the league's elite centers. "If at the end of the year he's the MVP, then we'll talk about what a great year he had," Jackson said.

The word "consistency" comes up a lot, and Bynum doesn't quite have it yet. He still can disappear for stretches, though not like his first two seasons, when he was a lost and oft-maligned teen.

Even Bryant, his harshest critic until about 10 minutes ago, has come around on the big kid.

"He's playing exceptional basketball for us right now, and it's encouraging to see at his age," Bryant said. "He has to continue to work, but the sky's the limit for him."

Bynum's breakthrough makes the Lakers formidable again. A team with an inside-outside game, an anchor in the paint.

They aren't an elite team yet, but they can see it from here.

Thanks to the big guy they weren't silly enough to trade

JediSkywalker

12-25-2007, 10:56 PM

It's time to fix that hole or this ship is going to sink fast. It's not a secret anymore.

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 10:59 PM

i have a feeling that if the suns meet the lakers again for the 3rd time in the playoffs, they're gonna win this time.

amare can't guard bynum, marion can't guard odom. and nash can't guard fisher.

JediSkywalker

12-25-2007, 11:03 PM

I am sure the Lakers will welcome a third meeting with the Suns in the playoffs. I hope the Suns can avoid them, even if that means being a lower seed. In the past, the Lakers always played against the Suns very well, including the 2005=2006 playoffs (they almost won that time). Last year they were decimated by injuries but this year could be theirs. That is scary. I do not want that team to hang another banner in their arena for at least 20 more years. :lol

ShelC

12-25-2007, 11:05 PM

amare can't guard bynum, marion can't guard odom. and nash can't guard fisher.

So we should just scrap the whole thing?

sunsdotcom

12-25-2007, 11:17 PM

amare can't guard bynum, marion can't guard odom. and nash can't guard fisher.

So we should just scrap the whole thing?

it used to be amare on kwame and nash on smush.

ShelC

12-25-2007, 11:25 PM

Would Banks be better on Fisher?

JediSkywalker

12-25-2007, 11:28 PM

Since the Lakers think they have the Suns all figured out, it may be good to surprise them with Banks on Fisher (as suggested by ShellC) . Unfortunately our stubborn coach may not want to try anything he has not already tried.

CharlesV

12-25-2007, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by ShelC View Post
amare can't guard bynum, marion can't guard odom. and nash can't guard fisher.

So we should just scrap the whole thing?
it used to be amare on kwame and nash on smush.

December Basketball.

Superbone

12-25-2007, 11:43 PM

I just hope Amare is embarrassed by being outplayed by Bynum. This team is just lacking fire right now.

ShelC

12-25-2007, 11:46 PM

December Basketball.

I know but its still concerning how we just cant defend consistently. We couldnt get any stops at all today, especially when it mattered.

CharlesV

12-25-2007, 11:57 PM

December Basketball.

I know but its still concerning how we just cant defend consistently. We couldnt get any stops at all today, especially when it mattered.

The NBA has caught up with the Suns, the Suns just need to run a little faster.

That is the company line, right?

.

.

The Suns just need to care. No matter who they are playing, they are the best team on the court. They just need to care.

sunsdotcom

12-26-2007, 12:03 AM

i can't download from this laker suns torrent because of the chinese characters.

http://bt.davka.info/torrents/jasonfeng/07.12.26-suns%20vs%20laker%20by%20jasonfeng.torrent

Andy_S

12-26-2007, 12:20 AM

The Suns just need to care. No matter who they are playing, they are the best team on the court. They just need to care.

I'll buy that one.

They need to learn how to adapt their game on the fly. And, contrary to popular belief, that is not all on the coach. I've seen them play some truly brilliant defense this season. I've seen some bewildering offense.

But, they lose focus. And that's where the games are won and lost. You don't need a brilliant gameplan to win, you just need the focus to stick to whatever your gameplan is. For some reason, we're having trouble doing that.

sunsdotcom

12-26-2007, 01:15 AM

suns lakers video podcast "behind-the-scenes"

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OfficialPhoenixSunsVideoPodcast/~5/206398500/suns_lakers_071225.mp4

Shabazz

12-26-2007, 01:50 AM

I'm not really into this whole "fire the coach" business for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of a good replacement. Is Terry Porter going to lead this team to a title? What about Rick Carlisle? Mark Jackson? Alvin Gentry? I'm not buying it.

We've built this team around D'Antoni's system and style and we don't have the players in place to completely change the system. As someone mentioned in the game thread, we can't become a halfcourt team all of a sudden. He's going to be here all year, folks.

The three issues I do have with D'Antoni's coaching thus far are 1: his tight rotation (I think the minutes the starters are playing are fine, we just need to work more guys in). You can't tell me Vujacic is a better player than Marcus Banks, he's just had more opportunity. 2: His unwillingness to tweak the system since 04-05 beyond running more Amare pick-and-rolls even though we're slower and don't shoot as well as we used to and 3: the fact that he doesn't seem to be pressing the right buttons to motivate this team. I think all are relatively simple fixes, however if the team is in fact starting to tune him out, which doesn't strike me as being the case, then more drastic measures have to be taken.

The guy I would love to have as our next head coach, whenever that may be, is David Blatt. He's currently coaching in Europe and led Russia to gold in the euro qualifiers. He's like D'Antoni with some defense. I'd love for us to bring him on as an assistant both to keep D'Antoni on his toes and to groom him for the job. But I don't think Mike would take too kindly to that.

frezix

12-26-2007, 02:12 AM

I think there is overreaction to andrew bynum, yeah he's playing solid, but he's not that great. Remember that we're a team that has made nick collison look like tim duncan, and countless others look all-star caliber. I would rather the suns lose now than in May and June IMO. Remember the spurs were NOT good at this time last year. and after the all-star break they knew what to do. I don't think this poor play will last much longer. I'm just going to watch away, because I know if i was under all this scrutiny and pressure, It would be almost impossible to thrive. I have a feeling at the end of this season we're going to hear how miserable this team was trying to adapt to expectations of a blowout every night.

fixxxer

12-26-2007, 02:53 AM

The Suns have chugged along thus far and have come off with a marginally acceptable record, but they’re no where close to playing at the level that they're capable of. And when looked at in a certain light, this fact actually causes me to look to the (near) future with cautious optimism.

Every single member of our team's returning core is underperforming to varying degrees... with the possible exception of Nash, who's about as good as he ever was.

Individually...

Amare's clearly not 100% and the consistent dominant play we've come to expect from him hasn't been there. The dominance has been evident in glimpses, but he's clearly yet to find his groove. Bell's drop in production and accuracy is directly linked to his nagging injuries IMO. Barring the odd unforeseen event, both these guys should be able to get healthy over the course of the season, and eventually get to levels of play that are reasonable facsimiles of what they've shown in the past.

Barbosa’s been inconsistent and is struggling when plugged into the second unit this year. However, he has absolutely gone off in the odd game, which makes me believe he can be a bigger factor than he was in last year’s playoffs when the games start mattering.

Diaw… hmm, let’s just tag him a slow starter and hope for the best at this point.

And as a unit, three of our main floor-spreaders have our having sub-par years from behind the arc. Again, it isn't at all unreasonable to expect Bell, Barbosa and Marion to improve on this front.

Add to these hypothetical improvements the Grant Hill Renaissance and the fact that Skinner is at the very least capable of 15-20 productive minutes when called upon, and it’s impossible to write off the Suns as a contender in the most legitimate sense. Despite them not playing like it at the very moment.

SpecialSauce

12-26-2007, 02:55 AM

SDC why the FUCK do you have a laker as your avatar? I'm sorry but that's absolutely ridiculous and I hope you lost a bet or something. Otherwise, sose manually change it ASAP

bobster

12-26-2007, 07:15 AM

so i guess the plan to go give amare and boris the lion's share of the big man's minutes has kind of backfired.

sure, they cause mismatches for the other teams, but when they can't begin to slow down the other team's big men it obviously becomes a big problem.

i'm not very optimistic about the postseason chances of this team. you have to believe there are several teams that would give them a lot of trouble if they meet them in in the playoffs.

AlanS

12-26-2007, 07:31 AM

As mentioned in the game day thread, I can't go crazy over this loss myself. The Suns are a better FT shooting team than the Lakers, but in this game, the Suns were 21/32 from the line, while the Lakers were 27/32 - that's a difference of 6 points. Add in that home court advantage is worth 2-3 pts, and I don't think this as horrible a loss as it's being made out to be.

In fact, if the FT numbers were reversed, the Suns would have won, and we'd all be saying what a great win the Suns had despite big games by Kobe and Bynum.

Given that foul shooting was decisive in a game that Bryant and Bynum dominated tells me that the Lakers are not necessarily the Suns' killers that people are suddenly claiming. (PS: Lakers almost blew a 24 lead vs the Knix on hot shooting vs Jamal Crawford. And in this game, Suns shot 10/24 <41%> on 3s. The Lakers perimeter defense might be a little suspect and exploitable.)

But having said that, two things are clear. FIRST: Fisher and this year's version of Bynum are huge upgrades over Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. Clearly, the talent gap between the Suns and Lakers has closed. In the past, the Suns may have been good enough to win despite a bad shooting night from the line. But now, the teams are close enough that there in no room for error.

The Suns had better hope they can get home court advantage in the playoffs if they have to meet the Lakers. If not... I'd have to say the Lakers are the favorites.

SECOND: Our bench continues to be a huge huge huge problem. I appreciate Boris' new found aggressiveness. But in the last 3 games, he is 2/9 (3 PT loss to Dallas), 2/8 (in blowout win vs Toronto) and 3/9 (7 pt loss to Lakers). Remember, this is a guy who shot 52% in 05/06 and 53% in 06/07. And it's not like he's helping the team on defense or under the boards - Boris is an offensive one-trick pony. It doesn't matter how aggressive he is, if he keeps shooting blanks, he's hurting the team not helping it.

Meanwhile: Barbosa's inconsistency is as frustrating as it is inexplicable. Last year, LB was a difference maker. There were many games where he would come off the bench and dominate. It's fair to say that he won many games himself with his speed and shooting.

But now, we never know what he's going to give us. The big problem is his mediocre 3PT shooting, down from 43% last season to 36% for this one. The Suns rely heavily on 3PT shooting, and when LB isn't hitting the long ball, it makes the team a lot easier to defend.

If these two guys can't get things turned around, the Suns are going to have a lot more to be worried about than just the Lakers. They're not going to be able to beat anybody at that rate. Unless the coaches are willing to play the starters 38-40 minutes a game. (Interestingly [to me anyway] Bryant, Odom, and Bynum played 41-42 minutes each this game.)

AlanS

12-26-2007, 07:33 AM

SDC why the FUCK do you have a laker as your avatar? I'm sorry but that's absolutely ridiculous and I hope you lost a bet or something. Otherwise, sose manually change it ASAP

Just my opinion Saucy, but I don't see it as disrespectful that somebody has a Hall of Famer RETIRED Laker as an avatar.

But heck - your avatar is Doris Diaw. What's up with that?

frezix

12-26-2007, 08:42 AM

also i don't know if anyone looked at the minutes, but everyone was in check, If Dantoni had his usual lineup going with marion and nash with 40+ minutes does anyone think that this could be a different game? it really looks like this team cares about the postseason and not the regular season. I remember complaints when we won games with the starters playing a lot of minutes, and hearing that people would sacrifice some wins to keep us fresh during the postseason. Now that's happening people are still mad. I just feel that there is no way the suns can do anything right with our fans. honestly, if we start to get close to .500 then we can think the sky is falling, but until you really see us decline then please just enjoy the team.

Xcon

12-26-2007, 08:52 AM

Man, all i hear are tons of excuses. Will they still fly when it's spring time and we're losing the same way? Will we still be able to blame it on Amare still recovering from a scope, Raja being banged up, blah blah blah. At some point, the excuses need to stop and something needs to change. And the fact that every big man on the opposing team is having career highs, does that not concern people? I don't remember that being the case last year. Not to the extent that it's happening this year at least.

Kemo_Sabe

12-26-2007, 08:55 AM

The Suns problems have been the same all year long:

Lack of interior defense (read Amare), terrible pick and roll defense, a lack of outside (3pt) shooters, and a short bench.

The Suns have been really frustrating to watch this year.

For the first time, I am actually wondering if the Suns would be better off trading STAT.

I also think the Suns should trade Diaw for a big man. Maybe somebody like Okafur. Varejo would have been nice too.

I am just depressed about the team right now. At least they should be able to win the next four games.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 09:00 AM

My biggest concern right now is that the guys who have been playing hard, like Stevie, Raja and Hill, are going to think they have to play that much harder the next few games to make sure we dont slip up. So those guys are already playing the hardest, now theyre overcompensating to make up for other guys who are coasting thru games. Thats a formula for disaster IMO.

With championship players, they have to HATE LOSING. They have to absolutely hate it, abhor it, not be able to live with it. You can never get used to losing. But these days, most players dont care cuz theyre getting paid regardless, theres always another game (during the season anyways), and no team goes 82-0. But u stil have to have that urgency and competitiveness to beat teams every night. Again, some of our guys have that, most dont.

Bogyo

12-26-2007, 09:04 AM

WORD Xcon.

Amare said it, Steve said it, reporters reported it (closed door meeting), my grandma said it: something is not OK with this team. You can explain it, spin it, cover it as much as you like, but that's not gonna change the fact.

The maddening (is that a word?) part about is that I feel that we could be much better if one or two "little" changes would happen or would have happened. I could not name any other players besides Hill and Skinner who are playing up to expectations or their capabilities fully this year. Some of it is injuries (Steve, Raja, Babs at the beggining, Amare?), some of it is the lack of practice or caring (Shawn's shot, Boris, Amare?), or simply not caring, with the occasional coaching blunders... It's just pissing me off that people are not willing to see this.

INFORMER

12-26-2007, 09:46 AM

MTSunsFan

12-26-2007, 09:53 AM

12-26-2007, 10:31 AM

sunsdotcom

12-26-2007, 10:34 AM

The Suns problems have been the same all year long:

Lack of interior defense (read Amare), terrible pick and roll defense, a lack of outside (3pt) shooters, and a short bench.

i really want the suns to play some zone defense. it's perfect for our smallish quick lineup. and i think i'd work vs the lakers, warriors etc. let the spurs shoot from outside as long as we prevent duncan from scoring at will inside (helps save amare's fouls too, and if we start babs, that would help him vs. bigger guards)

and i hope dantoni tries a new lineup:
nash, barbosa, marion amare, diaw

grant hill plays his usual 30+ minutes as a ginobili like sixth man.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 10:46 AM

I actually think Mark Jackson would be an interesting candidate to coach this team. Hes extremely intelligent, played the game as well as anyone and understands that you dont handcuff Nash, which a Carlisle, Skiles, Larry Brown might/would try to do. And Jackson has enough insight into this league to know that you need to play your bigs and take advantage of them to be successful in the playoffs. The problem with MJax is experience, or lack of it. I dont know that i'd trust a title contender to a rookie coach, tho we did with Westphaul and the 93 team.

That said, i think he'll make a fine coach one day.

Shabazz

12-26-2007, 11:15 AM

Screw wishing for home court or wanting to dodge the Lakers. We're talking about the Suns winning it all. Beat the best to be the best. Bring on the Lakers. If the Suns can't beat them, then they don't deserve to win it all.

Really a great point. And just to expound on it for a second, which teams do we want to match up with in the playoffs? New Orleans? Denver? GS? All of these guys pose serious matchup problems.

The playoffs are not going to be a cakewalk this year at any point. The west goes 9 deep with really solid teams. We're in for a tough 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round should we make it that far.

tbrkingofthesouth

12-26-2007, 11:47 AM

I'm not really into this whole "fire the coach" business for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of a good replacement. Is Terry Porter going to lead this team to a title? What about Rick Carlisle? Mark Jackson? Alvin Gentry? I'm not buying it.

Post of the day, although I'd be open to the idea of Rick Carlisle.

The Suns had better hope they can get home court advantage in the playoffs if they have to meet the Lakers. If not... I'd have to say the Lakers are the favorites.

Screw wishing for home court or wanting to dodge the Lakers. We're talking about the Suns winning it all. Beat the best to be the best. Bring on the Lakers. If the Suns can't beat them, then they don't deserve to win it all.

I like Carlisle too.I only saw the first half yesterday, but I am highly dissapointed in losing to the Lakers twice already..We need a big..Nazr would have been great for bigs like Bynum..Face it Amare is playing out of position..If I had to bet my life on a 7-game series between us and the Lakers..I would choose the Lakers..Fisher knows how to run that triangle and we are really in trouble with Bynum getting better..Kerr I hope you can see what I see.Amare is right the Lakers are better than us right now..It hurts to say that..D'Antoni is talking a bunch of BS

AlanS

12-26-2007, 11:49 AM

also i don't know if anyone looked at the minutes, but, If Dantoni had his usual lineup going with marion and nash with 40+ minutes does anyone think that this could be a different game? it really looks like this team cares about the postseason and not the regular season. I remember complaints when we won games with the starters playing a lot of minutes, and hearing that people would sacrifice some wins to keep us fresh during the postseason. Now that's happening people are still mad.

I agree 100% on this. Jackson played Byrant, Bynum and Odom 41-42 minutes. No Suns player did more than 36 minutes. I wonder how many Lakers fans are complaining about those minutes on their board?

The fans here want it both ways on this. They demand that the Suns win, AND they demand that the players' minutes are limited. But can both happen at the same time?

According to the boxscore - which I see was revised overnight - Steve was +3 in 36 minutes, Stat was +3 in 33 minutes (with 5 PFs), Marion was -2 in 35 minutes, Bell was - 2 in 33 minutes. If D'Antoni was willing to play his guys major minutes like Jackson did, who knows?

But at least nobody can say Coach Mike made his guys play too many minutes. So that's a victory, right?

Amare said it, Steve said it, reporters reported it (closed door meeting), my grandma said it: something is not OK with this team. You can explain it, spin it, cover it as much as you like, but that's not gonna change the fact.

You know, this stuff about the players don't care, they don't play hard enough, there's "something wrong"... all that stuff is ridiculous to me, hearing it from the team or the fans.

As someone once said, you're as good as your record. The Suns have lost on the road to the Lakers, Hornets, Mavs... all teams which have roughly the same record as the Suns. I think there is a fantasy that somehow the Suns are better than these other teams, and should be able to win if they play hard enough. This is WRONG.

The bottom line is, these other teams have improved and caught up with the Suns in talent and wins. When teams of equal records play, the expectation is that the home team will win - and that's what been happening lately. But people are angry because they expect the Suns to win... it's a delusion. And instead of accepting the fact that the other teams have caught up, the answer must be that they aren't playing hard enough... balderdash.

I say, give the Lakers some credit. Give the Hornets credit, give the Mavs credit. Maybe it wasn't about caring or playing hard... maybe it was just a matter of the better team winning. Isn't that a possibility?

Positives:
- Diaw is starting to lose the skirt

I still see nothing to cheer about with Boris. The problem is not just that's he's been passive, it's that he's been unproductive. In the past 3 games, these are his numbers:
• Mavs: 2/9, 4 pts, -17 in 20 minutes (Suns lost by 3 pts)
• Raptors: 2/8, 6 pts, +16 in 23 minutes (Suns won by 19 pts)
• Lakers: 3/9, 10 pts, -11 in 15 minutes (Suns lost by 7 pts)

Diaw is shooting 33% in his last 3 games. He had the team's worst +/- in both the Mavs loss and the Lakers loss. Has his increased aggressiveness helped make the team better? Not that I can see.

> Note: I do appreciate that Boris is playing harder, making stronger moves to the hoop, etc. But again, activity is not the same as achievement. I want Boris to produce. He's gat a ways to go still.

desertcoast

12-26-2007, 11:50 AM

Yes, we are a title contending team that doesn't want to meet:
LA
GS
Denver
NO
or Portland for that matter...

We just want to meet the Spurs where we will surely kick the sh*t out of them and then advance handily to put down Boston in short order.

Got it. I've marked it down. Let's go do it!!:wink:

12-26-2007, 11:52 AM

I still see nothing to cheer about with Boris. The problem is not just that's he's been passive, it's that he's been unproductive. In the past 3 games, these are his numbers:
• Mavs: 2/9, 4 pts, -17 in 20 minutes (Suns lost by 3 pts)
• Raptors: 2/8, 6 pts, +16 in 23 minutes (Suns won by 19 pts)
• Lakers: 3/9, 10 pts, -11 in 15 minutes (Suns lost by 7 pts)

Those jumpers will start falling, and those drives to the basket will start dropping.

When these things happen, Boris will all-of-a-sudden become an offensive threat. Like he should be.

tbrkingofthesouth

12-26-2007, 11:54 AM

I agree Alan S teams have caught up to us..The better team won like STAT said

AlanS

12-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Those jumpers will start falling, and those drives to the basket will start dropping.

When these things happen, Boris will all-of-a-sudden become an offensive threat. Like he should be.

I want to believe.

tbrkingofthesouth

12-26-2007, 12:14 PM

How did our lineup look with Skinner at the 5 stat4 Matrix 3? I missed the 2nd half b/c of travel

SpecialSauce

12-26-2007, 12:54 PM

Same as it did the rest of the game.....shitty

MTSunsFan

12-26-2007, 12:55 PM

How did our lineup look with Skinner at the 5 stat4 Matrix 3? I missed the 2nd half b/c of travel

Didn't help -- the Suns still lost the game...:wink:

tbrkingofthesouth

12-26-2007, 01:24 PM

Ty 2?

Superbone

12-26-2007, 02:01 PM

desertcoast

12-26-2007, 02:32 PM

That's a nice soundbyte, but I don't think Nash, Marion, Amare, Bell, LB or Hill looked capable of taking over that game if they only had a few more minutes on the court.

Maybe I missed someone who was red-hot...:wink:

y2jjedipimp

12-26-2007, 02:33 PM

JustWinBaby

12-26-2007, 03:21 PM

V9 Wrote

{Those jumpers will start falling, and those drives to the basket will start dropping.

When these things happen, Boris will all-of-a-sudden become an offensive threat. Like he should be.}

You are delusional

Will Boris all of a sudden become a Rebounder or even a poor defender. Right now he is horrible in both of those categories as well..

Unfortunately we are stuck with him..........

He is the biggest problem with this team bar none. Everyone is picking on Amare and others. Even Barbosa in his bad games has been better than Boris. The Coach supposedly loves the way he ways.

He only got 15 minutes yesterday and cannot remember when he last played 30 minutes or more.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 03:38 PM

Start Boris!

Yesterday, those hook shots he missed almost always go down. And youre delusional if u think Boris isnt a good post defender. Hes better than Amare.

Spanky

12-26-2007, 04:28 PM

Start Boris!

Yesterday, those hook shots he missed almost always go down. And youre delusional if u think Boris isnt a good post defender. Hes better than Amare.

Who isn't better than Amare? :wink:

IronMan

12-26-2007, 04:33 PM

SunsDevils

12-26-2007, 05:07 PM

Just give it some time. The Suns will figure it out. There is enough leadership on this team and the guys are too smart not to. I am not worried at all. This team is definitely slower than in the past years, however, we got some other advantages we did not have, like GH with his midrange/slashing game.

We can talk about Amare all you want, but I think there is one key to this team winning it all - it's Barbosa. When he is on, the team is pretty much unstoppable. When he plays badly, our bench suffers, scoring goes down when Nash is not in the game. For some reason, I don't think Barbs is still 100%. I don't see the same effort every game out of him. This team really needs him.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 05:12 PM

I think there is one key to this team winning it all - it's Barbosa.

We're in bigger trouble than orignally thought...

AlanS

12-26-2007, 05:17 PM

i think that the people who wanted that, me being one of them, wanted less mins for a chance to be more productive in those fewer mins. I dont think that our starters playing 40+ uninspired mins, which basically what the majority of the mins were yesterday, would have made us any closer to a victory.

You're selling the starters short. Nash and Stat both had a +3 for their time in the game, Bell and Marion were at -2. Basically, those 4 guys played the Lakers even. Here are the +/- stats for the game:
Nash +3 (36 mins)
Amare +3 (33)
Marion -2 (35)
Bell -2 (33)
Hill -7 (34)
Barbosa -8 (29)
Skinner -11 (22)
Diaw -11 (15)

There's no doubt about it, there was a huge drop-off once the starters (particularly Nash and Amare) were off the court.

We'll never know what might have happened if the Nash, Amare, Bell, and Marion had played 41-42 minutes like Bryant, Bynum and Odom did. But obviously Phil Jackson thought those heavy minutes were key for the Lakers' chances of winning.

I think the point of the less mins argument is that it could allow our starters to be able to play at a higher level throughout the course of the season and well into the playoffs without as much risk getting burnt out or injured. It seems to me that people who are arguing less mins want other players to be brought along throughout the course of the season.

Well, that's cool to say. But if you're going to say that, will you also say that you're cool with the Suns losing more games? It just seems to me, when the Suns lose and players don't play extended minutes, nobody says, "Well we lost, but it's OK, we kept the minutes down, we'll be fresher for the playoffs."

If I'm Mike D'Antoni and I fell like I'm being held accountable for regular season wins and losses, then what choice do I have but play the starters as hard as possible? Cause if the team loses, the fans are going to want my head, and nobody will give me credit for resting starters in games we might have been more competitive in, if the starters had more PT.

JustWinBaby

12-26-2007, 05:20 PM

I think there is one key to this team winning it all - it's Barbosa.

We're in bigger trouble than orignally thought...

No worse than thinking Boris should start or is a better post defender than Amare. I have no idea whom you are watching when you try to defend any part of Boris's play.
Boris is making $45 Million and is finding it hard to get more minutes than Skinner.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 05:27 PM

Start Boris!

SunsRIt

12-26-2007, 06:13 PM

I e-mailed this to Ash today

I would like to start a Dan Majerle for head coach bandwagon. He was a gritty, hard-nosed defender and a hustler on the court. I would bet he can motivate the team to play well defensively and knows how an up-tempo style can operate when coupled with a half-court offense. Majerle played under some pretty good coaches and was one of those “coach on the floor” type players. I think D’Antoni is losing the team right now and can’t motivate them properly. He isn’t doing well when it comes to influencing the refs either. When Amare got called for that 4th foul yesterday against the Lakers (Bynum with a full head of steam completely running over a stationary Amare with both feet 6-12 inches outside of the restricted area) D’Antoni should have been all over the refs and maybe gotten himself ejected to motivate his team and let Amare know that he has his back.

With that said, I think one of the main problems with the Suns defense right now is the absence of Mark Iavaroni. He was the mind behind any defense we had last year, not D'Antoni.

ShelC

12-26-2007, 06:17 PM

I dont know that Majerle has the chops for coaching. Frank Johnson on the other hand....

12-26-2007, 06:49 PM

Everyone on this board is going insane. Dan Majerle and Frank Johnson for coach is not the answer.

A friend of mine mentioned our terrible spacing. It's true. The fact that Shawn Marion can't hit a three is killing us: we can't stretch any defense.

I really don't think this team has what it takes. Boris and Amare do the same thing. We have no center. We have but three players who are good 3-point shooters. We are older, slower, less-athletic. We don't have the personnel for D'Antoni ball.

But I guess that's just me and my bloated expectations after getting within a series of a championship for three straight years. I guess I should be happy we're making the playoffs and clearly inferior to the teams we've been the last three years. I mean hey! At least we got Grant Hill and Brian Skinner for peanuts!

:smile:

darrkin

12-26-2007, 07:13 PM

Changes are a coming....you just know that Sarver and Kerr cant be real happy right now....I just hope they are positive changes and not a fire sale

BigLewy

12-26-2007, 07:17 PM

The Hawks are on their way to yet another win...I wish that pick got traded when it had some value.

Doctor_G

12-26-2007, 07:18 PM

Now we have folks advocating for a coaching change, what's next? Don't get me wrong, I'm not real happy with Mike at the moment, but I believe there are other things which MUST transpire before even considering going down that road. First and foremost, D'Antoni needs to actually coach, ya know, be the man in charge. Instead, we have probably the most passive coach in the league. How many more times do we need to hear Mike say to the camera..."if Raja tells me he's ok, then I'm gonna have to play him". Then there's our team leader Nash? It litterally pains me to see Nash bring the ball up the court with his arm half raised every trip. It's so blatantly obvious to me that Nash is far from being healthy. His elbow is so far from being right, it's downright amazing the level of play he's still able to display out there. That really is a testatament as to just how GREAT a player he is. I just pray there isn't something really wrong with his elbow that may actually require surgery at some point.

I think we could all easily deal with Bell sitting for a cpl of weeks to heal his wounds, but sitting Nash is an alltogether different story...especially considering the elite level of play Nash is displaying while playing hurt. The guy is simply amazing, and well on his way to the Hall of Fame. We litterally drop off the map if we sit Nash, but if it means a Healthy Nash come playoff time...so be it. At any rate, Mike needs to start coaching, and be the man in charge. He needs to do the logical thing and sit Bell, Nash or anyone else who needs to sit, in oder to get right...HEALTH-WISE.

If I were in charge, I'd give Banks one final real chance to show he either belongs on this team, or if he's truly the bust we're all accustomed to. That's means you ACTUALLY play the guy for a stretch worthy of landing on your feet, or falling for the final time. I'd bring up DJ and get him some playing time if Nash is hurting more than advertised (which I believe is the case) and you absolutley sit Bell, let him heal, and bring him back only when 100%. I start Barbosa, then go with Banks off the bench. If Nash is to be sat, then DJ is the 3rd guard in the equation.

Yeah I know, how does a team manage with only three guards available. I guess that's the $64,000 question. Diaw at guard, Hill? Hell I just don't know. What I do know is that it pains me to watch Nash with his arm raiesd halfway up every time he's on the floor, and we all know bell is not even close to being healthy. Playing them hurt, sure aint gonna heal them, this much I do know. Maybe an emergency guard is brought up from the D League. Sad thing is, Mike has not done the right thing so far, and it's not likely he's going to sit bell, let alone Nash. He'd have to take CHARGE and actually be a coach / boss to do that.

sunsdotcom

12-26-2007, 07:22 PM

Start Boris!

STAART BORIS START BORIS!!! :mrgreen:

sunsdotcom

12-26-2007, 07:26 PM

I would like to start a Dan Majerle for head coach bandwagon.

<shudder...>

ShelC

12-26-2007, 07:36 PM

I was being facetious when i mentioned Frank Johnson as a coaching candidate.

The fact that Shawn Marion can't hit a three is killing us: we can't stretch any defense....We have but three players who are good 3-point shooters. We are older, slower, less-athletic. We don't have the personnel for D'Antoni ball.

Ive been screamin about this since the start of the year. No 3pt shooters=less spacing for Amare inside. No amare inside=defenders staying out on our shooters.

Instead of playing outside-in, we need to try inside-out. Establish Amare on the block early in the game, make the other team adjust with a double and locate the open shooter(s).

singh

12-26-2007, 07:52 PM

[QUOTE]I would like to start a Dan Majerle for head coach bandwagon.

Hollaaa!!!

SunsFan4Life

12-26-2007, 07:59 PM

I think it's obvious we need a tweak. If we're gonna be soft inside might as well have a great 3pt shooting team(ala 2005-06) If we're gonna have limited 3pt shooters on the team might as well have a solid inside presence.

I really really think we could get somting done with Memphis you look at there team and you kinda scratch your head of why the hell they suck so bad. They Have a tone of players every team would want but no real go to guy. Rudy Gay will eventually become that probably but none right now and Iavorni is trying to play "Suns Ball" With a team whos best layer is a slow 7 foot center(Gasol).

3 things we need

Another athletic Rebounder
Backup Point guard
Shooter

Backup Point

I would love to get Kyle Lowry(who I pleded with the Suns to draft a few years ago) but doubt they give him or Conley up so I wouldn't Mind seeing Damon Stoudemire here. He atleast plays the point position half decently and isn't the shooter he wants was but still is atleast a therat from 3 and you just know he'll go somewhere at the deadline(I believe he is an expiring contract as well)

Shooter
The Only Guy who fits Dantoni system better then Miller is prob Shawn Marion. Miller would have a freakin field Day in this system. Park him in 1 corner LB in the other and good luck helping off the Nash Penatration. Miller suprisingly is 1 of the best rebounding Guards in the league as well...He has a decently Big Contract but if there is anyway we could get him here..It would be Ideal.

Big Man
He isn't really a Big man But I think Hakim Warrick could be of some value here as a slightly undersized PF. He's on the trading block and has a dirt cheap contract...he is as athletic as they come can't really shoot but is a great shot blocker. I know we talked about him before but he could be of some help as well...

I refuse to believe that Boris Diaw has reached the "Kurt Thomas" Phase yet where the only way we can deal him is for nothing or with picks. He still has some value and is still young. Iavorni remembers what he did and he could work well with a guy like Gasol. If we need to throw in tucker and the Hawks Pick so be it....But I think if we make a swap Memphis is the team it should be with....

SunsFan4Life

12-26-2007, 08:01 PM

I think it's obvious we need a tweak. If we're gonna be soft inside might as well have a great 3pt shooting team(ala 2005-06) If we're gonna have limited 3pt shooters on the team might as well have a solid inside presence.

I really really think we could get somting done with Memphis you look at there team and you kinda scratch your head of why the hell they suck so bad. They Have a tone of players every team would want but no real go to guy. Rudy Gay will eventually become that probably but none right now and Iavorni is trying to play "Suns Ball" With a team whos best layer is a slow 7 foot center(Gasol).

As I type this they are getting booed off the court and trail The Hornets by 19. Things may change there and quickly...

3 things we need

Another athletic Rebounder
Backup Point guard
Shooter

Backup Point

I would love to get Kyle Lowry(who I pleded with the Suns to draft a few years ago) but doubt they give him or Conley up so I wouldn't Mind seeing Damon Stoudemire here. He atleast plays the point position half decently and isn't the shooter he wants was but still is atleast a therat from 3 and you just know he'll go somewhere at the deadline(I believe he is an expiring contract as well)

Shooter
The Only Guy who fits Dantoni system better then Miller is prob Shawn Marion. Miller would have a freakin field Day in this system. Park him in 1 corner LB in the other and good luck helping off the Nash Penatration. Miller suprisingly is 1 of the best rebounding Guards in the league as well...He has a decently Big Contract but if there is anyway we could get him here..It would be Ideal.

Big Man
He isn't really a Big man But I think Hakim Warrick could be of some value here as a slightly undersized PF. He's on the trading block and has a dirt cheap contract...he is as athletic as they come can't really shoot but is a great shot blocker. I know we talked about him before but he could be of some help as well...

I refuse to believe that Boris Diaw has reached the "Kurt Thomas" Phase yet where the only way we can deal him is for nothing or with picks. He still has some value and is still young. Iavorni remembers what he did and he could work well with a guy like Gasol. If we need to throw in tucker and the Hawks Pick so be it....But I think if we make a swap Memphis is the team it should be with....[/QUOTE]

ShelC

12-26-2007, 08:06 PM

Memphis has a lot of players that interest me as well. I think Stoudamire would do well running the point here if his head is on straight. I think Warrick is the type of athlete we could use in the frontcourt. Miller would be ideal as a 3.

But who do we give up? Who would they want/take?

The other problem is making such drastic moves in the middle of what should be a title year. A tweak is one thing, like the Pistons adding Sheed in mid year. But to shake up the core and have to get everyone re-adjusted might be too much.

SunsFan4Life

12-26-2007, 08:38 PM

Your right Shel. I really think we could get Stoudemire for next to Nothing. Its ashame we dont have our own pick this year because we could of given that to them for him and warrick probably. Stoudemire even may be bought out soon who knows it just doesnt make sense for him to be there with Conley Jr and Lowry.

Coach I might bite on Diaw. Who Knows maybe the guy does need a change of scenery...I don't doubt he can still play in this league and Maybe Iavorni thinks so to. We don't have a lot of assets true...But Memphis looks like they have made close to no progress this season so I would not doubt some sort of fire Sale involving the Vets(Miller and Stoudemire) just to unload the contracts and give the younger guys time and there is no room for warrick there with Gay,Millicic,Gasol

JediSkywalker

12-26-2007, 08:38 PM

Today I was wondering if the presence of Kurt Thomas on our team would have made a difference yesterday. Could he have kept Bynum in check? Of course it's all theoretical, but I can't help wondering.

SunsFan4Life

12-26-2007, 08:40 PM

If there is some sort of bidding war however between contenders with draft picks and young players involved though...we're screwed

ShelC

12-26-2007, 08:53 PM

I dont think KT wouldve/couldve done much more than Skinner. MikeD rarely gives his defensive bigs more than 20-22minutes in a game. KT only saw extended time in the playoffs and that was because of TD. But usually, he stayed at the 20 minute mark. MikeD is going with his main guys to win games.

For Stoudamire....i dont think Memphis is looking to move him cuz theyre relying on him and Lowry this year. Conleys taken longer to adjust than expected so they do have a need there. I dont think the Grizz or MarcI would want Banks and his contract, which is longer than stouds.

If there were a firesale, we still couldnt get anything from the grizz cuz we have no expiring contracts. We had KTs deal but traded it. He wouldve been a huge bargaining piece for the 1st half of the year and we wouldnt have had to pay l-tax for his salary as long as we moved him by the end of january IINM. But that wouldve meant paying him for half a year, which we avoided by trading him in august.

zara_drummer

12-26-2007, 11:17 PM

[QUOTE]I would like to start a Dan Majerle for head coach bandwagon.

Hollaaa!!!

I'll see your Dan Majerle and raise you one EDDIE JOHNSON...

This guy WANTS to coach...I'm not saying to ax Mike D...Things arent THAT bad....IMO but if the need ever arose, I think Eddie would make a great coach.

torres

12-26-2007, 11:37 PM

I don't think Brian Skinner is getting the credit he deserves. Personally, I think Skinner is a better fit for the Suns than both Kurt Thomas and Steven Hunter, he's like a combination of both.

Skinner's athleticism and shot blocking resemble Hunter, but his IQ, defense, and occasional jump shot resemble Thomas. Skinner's type of game doesn't make him as much of a liability as either Thomas or Hunter.

Velo

12-27-2007, 03:18 AM

anyone think they're missing the presence of Marc Iavaroni?

Bogyo

12-27-2007, 03:19 AM

[QUOTE=frezix;8871]also i don't know if anyone looked at the minutes, but, If Dantoni had his usual lineup going with marion and nash with 40+ minutes does anyone think that this could be a different game? it really looks like this team cares about the postseason and not the regular season. I remember complaints when we won games with the starters playing a lot of minutes, and hearing that people would sacrifice some wins to keep us fresh during the postseason. Now that's happening people are still mad.

I agree 100% on this. Jackson played Byrant, Bynum and Odom 41-42 minutes. No Suns player did more than 36 minutes. I wonder how many Lakers fans are complaining about those minutes on their board?

The fans here want it both ways on this. They demand that the Suns win, AND they demand that the players' minutes are limited. But can both happen at the same time?

According to the boxscore - which I see was revised overnight - Steve was +3 in 36 minutes, Stat was +3 in 33 minutes (with 5 PFs), Marion was -2 in 35 minutes, Bell was - 2 in 33 minutes. If D'Antoni was willing to play his guys major minutes like Jackson did, who knows?

But at least nobody can say Coach Mike made his guys play too many minutes. So that's a victory, right?

Amare said it, Steve said it, reporters reported it (closed door meeting), my grandma said it: something is not OK with this team. You can explain it, spin it, cover it as much as you like, but that's not gonna change the fact.

You know, this stuff about the players don't care, they don't play hard enough, there's "something wrong"... all that stuff is ridiculous to me, hearing it from the team or the fans.

As someone once said, you're as good as your record. The Suns have lost on the road to the Lakers, Hornets, Mavs... all teams which have roughly the same record as the Suns. I think there is a fantasy that somehow the Suns are better than these other teams, and should be able to win if they play hard enough. This is WRONG.

The bottom line is, these other teams have improved and caught up with the Suns in talent and wins. When teams of equal records play, the expectation is that the home team will win - and that's what been happening lately. But people are angry because they expect the Suns to win... it's a delusion. And instead of accepting the fact that the other teams have caught up, the answer must be that they aren't playing hard enough... balderdash.

I say, give the Lakers some credit. Give the Hornets credit, give the Mavs credit. Maybe it wasn't about caring or playing hard... maybe it was just a matter of the better team winning. Isn't that a possibility?

QUOTE]

So you are saying that everything is fine and dandy with this team, except we are not better anymore than the Hornets, Lakers, etc... This - in my humble opinion - means that we are not contenders anymore. These two statements kind of contradict each other, unless you are fine with not being a contender after the last couple years when we were.

Edit: comments in todays news thread by Amare and Nash:

"We've got to get to the point where everybody's working and putting in time and effort to earn a championship," Stoudemire said. "I might have to speak up more and play harder."

Suns guard Steve Nash said the difference between an acceptable 5-3 stretch and this 3-5 one lies with the games in which Phoenix did not play hard.

Well, this settles the debate about playing hard or not...

frezix

12-27-2007, 03:35 AM

I just wish people would remember that we're 19-9 in December. All of the tongue lashing that this team has gotten for racking up tons of regular season wins, awards, and not getting a title has left them believing that the regular season does not mean as much as it used to. This team is mature enough to know what its doing. We've been title contenders during this time of the year since 2004-2005. Now I think the team is preparing to be title contenders during May and June.

frezix

12-27-2007, 03:45 AM

Nashfan I believe that Kurt would have helped because if there's one thing he did, It was box out, and I'm sure it would've made it easier to get boards for amare and matrix, while also halting some easy putbacks.

SpecialSauce

12-27-2007, 03:58 AM

SpecialSauce

12-27-2007, 03:59 AM

misteradiant

12-28-2007, 02:01 PM

David Blatt. He's currently coaching in Europe and led Russia to gold in the euro qualifiers. He's like D'Antoni with some defense. I'd love for us to bring him on as an assistant both to keep D'Antoni on his toes and to groom him for the job. But I don't think Mike would take too kindly to that.

why would that bother him? that's exactly what the suns did to frank johnson when they brought in d'antoni. all that means is mike ought to be sure he has solid savings for retirement or a high profile gig on espn within two years.

i don't think the suns have any plans for coaching past mike. that's a pretty good indication that he got decent job security. calls for his dismissal are worth about as much as a suns trade scenario.

and when did this board become the shabazz, frezix and fixxxer lovefest? this site has been up over a month and nobody got "distinguished road" status, whatever the hell that means, sose. but these rookies have that and come in here posting one after the other so i can read the opinions of three people i've known for less time than my hemorrhoids as i wonder what happened to lazarus and uo and sodc and even swing, who posts little more than the news articles and max power, who made a statement vowing to leave our humble basketball home and i could go on but won't. anyway, welcome to our site, rookies. try not to take it over. we are the ones you read that made you want to be a member, too. i don't think you want it without us because i did not miss coming here once for the past five days and at this rate, i won't be back again for a week and maybe by then i'll just read it and not participate in it, like i believe some of us who've been around for five years or more are doing now.

besides, the girls are singing a beatles song on the karaoke machine and laughing. i should be singing with them. that's better than coming here and feeling irrelevant.

it also sucks to post stuff you've already posted in other posts in other threads. we all have our moments of that, but when swing goes off about james jones it's at least funny because his passion is so extreme. you guys are, well, enjoy your distinguished road status, but you're boring. quit boring me while patting yourselves on your backs. i sure hope you three don't work in cubicles at the same job, but it would explain a lot.

thanks though for giving me something new to rant about. hopefully you don't feel used, because i do what i do for free! mwoo-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

echoing throughout the town, the madman who wished he was a prophet laughed and drank his beer.

but seriously guys, you're too funny. you all work at the same place, don't you? oh man if ladmo reads this he's going to laugh. i know, you all work for homeland security or the cia. it's the only thing that makes sense. i suddenly feel relevant again. up with people!

seriously seriously, thanks for being the butts for my jokes. this was a lot of fun, let's do it again. it's what you get for coming in here with such a high profile. nobody knows you but you say you're distinguished? i think up where it says things like rookie or sixth man or hall of fame, that's what is considered distinguished around here and wow! a robot sighting!

i'll let you off with this rant, but only because robot just showed up.