Tuesday's News: The Alamo Bitch Babies get served an olive branch enema - at home

[SwingMan]

Suns get defensive vs. Spurs (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1217suns1218.html)
Suns corral Duncan in 2nd half, serve Spurs 1st home loss of season

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/pics/1217sunsgame.jpg
Amaré Stoudemire and Steve Nash defend Spurs forward Tim Duncan during the third quarter in San Antonio on Monday night.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 17, 2007 11:18 PM

SAN ANTONIO - That sound coming from the AT&T Center visitor's locker-room showers late Monday night was barely identifiable.

It was singing, something that none of the Suns' 13 predecessors had felt like doing this season after losing to the Spurs.

It wasn't four-part harmony, but harmony nonetheless, and music to the ears of a Suns team that had experienced some discord leading up to their 100-95 victory Monday night.
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"It doesn't make me feel any better about (last season's playoff series loss to the Spurs), but, with the way we played last game (a loss at New Orleans on Saturday), this feels great that we played hard and got a win," Suns guard Steve Nash said. "That's what I'm proud of."

To most observers, Monday's victory won't mean much because the Suns eked out a win against a Spurs team missing point guard Tony Parker, out because of an ankle sprain.

But after losing 16 of 21 meetings in the previous three seasons, including the playoffs, the manner of the victory and the arena in which it was won was gold.

The Suns overcame sputtering offensive moments with huge defensive plays late.

After Spurs power forward Tim Duncan torched Amaré Stoudemire and company for a 24-point, 12-rebound first half in his second game back from a four-game injury absence, he was held to two points in the game's final seven minutes.

Four Suns came up with three steals and a block down the stretch to set up a 6-0 Suns run to close the game.

Spurs guard Manu Ginobili hit a tough, driving shot for a 95-94 lead with 28.3 seconds to go, and Nash then missed a jumper.

With Duncan helping on Nash, Stoudemire defied Phoenix's last-place offensive rebounding ranking by getting the board and was fouled. His two free throws with 17.4 seconds remaining made it 96-95.

Spurs guard Bruce Bowen, who shot 0 for 4, wound up with the potential go-ahead shot - a corner three-pointer that missed.

After Suns forward Grant Hill made it 98-95 with two free throws, coach Mike D'Antoni substituted forward Boris Diaw for defensive purposes, and Diaw stole the ball from Ginobili to secure the victory.

Neither team led by more than two points during the final 10 minutes until Hill's free throws.

"To grind it out, be able to defend, do some things like that and win like that against a team that prides itself on that, it should be a big deal for us," Suns guard Raja Bell said.

Besides a team-high 22 points on 8-of-12 shooting, Hill was clutch for Phoenix. He had a key block on Duncan in the post, hit a go-ahead jumper in the final minute and cut off San Antonio's attempt to feed Ginobili on the play that wound up going to Bowen. San Antonio was 5 for 23 on three-point shots. Duncan's first half was wasted because teammates shot 11 for 30 from the field, and the Suns led 51-50 at halftime.

Despite the poor shooting by Suns guards Leandro Barbosa (6 for 19), Nash (3 for 8) and Bell (2 for 8), Phoenix was efficient in crunch time.

"We need to win that way," D'Antoni said. "That's going to be the key. We've got to be tougher and grittier and defend a little bit better, and I thought we did."

Report

Cheers

Grant Hill's block and steals by Raja Bell, Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw down the stretch won the game for Phoenix, along with a much-improved defensive effort by Amaré Stoudemire on Tim Duncan.

Jeers

The Suns became shaky, with three air balls in the middle of the fourth quarter, allowing San Antonio to regain the lead.

Player of the game

Hill finished with 22 points and seven rebounds, carrying Phoenix's offense early and finishing with big plays down the stretch.

View from press row

San Antonio now rarely holds morning shootarounds on the days of games, unlike the practice of every other NBA team. Asked why his team has not gone to that, Suns coach Mike D'Antoni stood on the AT&T Center floor Monday and pointed to the four massive championship banners in the rafters. He said, "See those up there? If we get three or four of those, we won't have shootarounds, either." To the left of those four banners, there are four more that are slightly smaller to celebrate the conference titles won during the championship years. Isn't that excessive?

- Paul Coro

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Had to work last night/this morning, so I missed this game live (DVRed it & I'll be watching the DVD in a little while). From the game thread, it sounds like these fuckers were desperate enough to reach deeper into the cheat bag.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If there's NEVER another Argentine in the league again, it'll be too damn soon.

Also, some conflicting reports on Amare's D - while folks in the game thread called him out for bad D, Coro's actually cheeringt it. Which was it?

[SwingMan]

(The latest from Paul Coro's blog)

Nice win, but is it a breakthrough? (http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/12875)

The Suns' 100-95 win over San Antonio has to be important to some extent. The Suns won a game in a place no other team has won. They withstood an unbelievable first half from Tim Duncan and still led at halftime (Mike D'Antoni called it the "rope-a-dope" strategy. Jokingly, I think). They won a game in which Steve Nash did not shoot well for the first time in a while. It should have been Phoenix's first win without scoring 100 but some fouls spoiled that breakthrough.

But still, even the Suns know that this was is qualified with an asterisk just like the one fans want to put on the playoff series.

"We just barely won against the Spurs without Tony," said Tony Parker's best friend, Boris Diaw (by the way, that was mostly the Diaw the Suns need, especially against San Antonio's small lineup). "It would've been a different game. It doesn't mean we would've (lost)."

The bounces went Phoenix's way for a change. It looked like the Suns were going to fold when Diaw shot two airballs and Leandro Barbosa (6 for 19 on the night) added another airball in the middle of the fourth quarter. They were on their way to blowing a lead entering the fourth quarter for the first time this season, just a game after losing when tied entering the fourth against New Orleans.

But unlike the airball floater he had on a game-winner at New Orleans, Marion had a floater somehow bounce in after hitting back rim. Tim Duncan lost control of a ball in the post with his team head by one in the final minute. Even on the huge Diaw steal from Manu Ginobili, the Spurs had the mismatch they wanted and Ginobili probably could have dribble out wide and by him.

"Of course, we miss Tony Parker," Duncan said. "He's one of our best players. We miss him offensively and for the way he attacks and breaks people down. You never know how having him out there and having those things available to us would have changed things.

"We just had some bad possessions down the stretch and it started with me losing that pass."

Phoenix survived the storms, handled the intensity and wound up looking gutty for it when a drive like Ginobili had by Grant Hill and over Shawn Marion sure looked like the kind of play that would put Phoenix down in the past

"It's fun to be in these type of games," Hill said. "I was having fun. It was even more fun to win. We'll see them a lot more. We've just got to know we can win on this court and get confidence that we can beat this team."

[SwingMan]

Nash: Spotty defense 'frustrating' (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1217sunsnb1218.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/pics/1217sunslive.jpg
Spurs forward Tim Duncan is defended by the Suns' Boris Diaw and Shawn Marion during the first quarter in San Antonio on Monday.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 17, 2007 10:49 PM

SAN ANTONIO - Sometimes, it's hard to determine which is more responsible for Suns losses. Do they lose because they shooting 5 percentage points worse in losses or because they allow teams to shoot 5 percentage points better in defeats?

The Suns often talk about the offense being their best defense, but when they want to, they sure can look good defensively.

In their loss Saturday, the Suns forced New Orleans into four missed jumpers and a travel violation to give themselves a shot to win. New Orleans shot 41 percent, and the Suns were sick about their defense, because a 42-point New Orleans second half made their lackluster play in the first half - when they allowed 59 points - stand out even more.
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"What frustrates me is we don't play hard all the time," Suns guard Steve Nash said before Phoenix played San Antonio on Monday night. "We're small. We've got to play extremely hard to negate their size. But when we do play hard, we're a real good defensive team. But does that mean it takes too much out of us to play like that all the time? Maybe, but there's got to be somewhere in between where we can reach a level where even when we have lulls, we're still in tune mentally and focused, and we're an adequate defensive team.

"I really expect more out of us, and that's what is frustrating, not seeing a consistent effort and concentration."

Because the Suns have closed strong defensively, coach Mike D'Antoni does not think his request for energetic, switching, hustling defense should be limited to parts of the game.

"We should be a good defensive team, and I think we will be," D'Antoni said. "They're not playing a lot of minutes. There's no reason they can't. We just mentally have to be a lot tougher."

Tucker returns

The Suns swapped their rookies, sending guard D.J. Strawberry to Albuquerque and bringing forward Alando Tucker back from his NBA Development League assignment.

Tucker averaged 28.2 points and seven rebounds in five games, including 40 and 32 points in the final two. After going 2 for 12 on three-pointers in his first three games, he was 6 of 8 in the last two.

Free throws

Suns guard Raja Bell made his 600th career three-pointer Monday. He is the 16th NBA player to make 600 and shoot 40 percent. Others with Suns ties include Nash, Wesley Person, Steve Kerr, Jeff Hornacek and Pat Garrity.

• Spurs coach Gregg Popovich, on the Amaré Stoudemire and Boris Diaw suspensions during last season's playoffs: "All of us wish there was no suspensions, that's for sure. It has to have an effect on a team. Teams are better when they have all their players. There's no doubt about that. But in this league, things happen. Adjustments have to be made; playing through adversity are things that happen to all of us."
Swing's note: Yeah Popovich, "shit happens", right? :roll:

[SwingMan]

Just have to show this pic from the AzCentral sports front page - Not a word needs to describe it:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/pics/1217sunsnu.jpg

[Bogyo]

"Of course, we miss Tony Parker," Duncan said.

"I am the great Corhoolioo and I need TP for my bunghole!" Beavis said.

[DrSublime]

SZIA! BOGYO

and awseome B&B quote.. hahaha classic

[Wormwood]

Suns take care of business vs. Spurs
Charley Rosen
Special to FOXSports.com, Updated 7 hours ago STORY TOOLS:

Game time: Suns 100, Spurs 95

In the NBA's latest media-hyped rivalry, this was absolutely a must-win for Phoenix. And for just about any team other than the Spurs, playing without their 20 ppg All-Star point guard Tony Parker would have made this a throwaway game. Going into the contest, the Suns were faced with five crucial questions:

1. How would Parker's absence affect the outcome?


Jacque Vaughn shot well — 7-for-10 for 14 points — hitting open jumpers plus a couple of driving floaters. But he never put enough pressure on the Suns' defense. He didn't earn a single free throw — and he made a host of mistakes. These included a couple of forced shots, a charging foul, and even a moving screen.

Brent Barry was 2-for-6 with five assists, but his subpar defense was the target of the Suns' offense.

Overall, Parker's unavailability was a huge factor — and one reason why the Suns had 27 free throws to the Spurs' 15.

2. How would Phoenix deal with the Spurs' physicality?


The banging was extremely limited.

Just some minor arm-wrestling between Boris Diaw and Fabricio Oberto; a solid screen set on Bruce Bowen from Brian Skinner; and Robert Horry was knocked down by a screen set by Shawn Marion.

But there was absolutely no discernable bad blood between the teams.

In fact, after one second-quarter play wherein a questionable foul was nailed on Marion for inducing Horry to flop, the two were actually smiling and joking about the injustice of the call.

Even Bowen's late-game defense against Steve Nash was much more gentle than we'll see in the playoffs.

3. Could the Suns control tempo?


Almost.

Literally half of the Suns' 36 field goals were produced by their half-court offense, but their shooting percentage in these situations was less than 40 percent.

The Spurs managed 13 offensive rebounds (to the Suns' six) and thereby generated eight extra shots as well as slowing the pace.

But if the Suns couldn't establish either their running game or their early offense, when the game came down to the finish line, Nash's creative ball-handling and passing were the deciding factors.

The Spurs had their biggest spurts when they went small — teaming Tim Duncan with Manu Ginobili, Vaughn, Barry, Bowen and Mike Finley — and were temporarily able to match Phoenix's quick-hitting offense.

In essence, Nash enabled the Suns to compete on virtual even terms with the Spurs in San Antonio's own station-to-station game.

4. Could the Suns control Tim Duncan?


Nope. TD was 15-for-25 and had 17 rebounds to go with his 36 points.

For most of the game, he totally destroyed Amare Stoudemire — spinning, jump hooking, laying in put-backs and securing great position in the pivot.

Skinner, however, did a yeoman's job at defending Duncan — fronting him and thereby denying TD the ball, fighting for position on every possession and even blocking one of Duncan's shots.

In the waning minutes of the game, however, Stoudemire made two critical plays: Poking an entry pass away from Duncan, a play that led to a fast-break hoop by Grant Hill, and capturing an offensive rebound and converting the two subsequent free throws.

Stoudemire's numbers weren't as spectacular as Duncan's — 6-for-9, six rebounds, 17 points — but he came up big at both ends when the game was on the line.
5. Could the Suns contain Manu Ginobili?


Yes and no. They were unable to keep Ginobili out of the middle, but the Spurs' electric wingman missed four layups and had one blocked. For the game, Ginobili was 6-for-19 for 18 points — but he made a runner that was nearly the winning score.

Without Parker on the floor, the Suns could concentrate on ganging up on Ginobili's lane penetrations — and they did a good job here.
Not having to deal with Parker undoubtedly took some of the sweetness out of the Suns' revenge. Still, winning in San Antonio is tough no matter which of the home team's players are MIA.

All in all, the Suns came up with several big plays in the clutch and simply did what they had to do. That in itself is one sign of an outstanding ball club.


Rosen is an ass-clown, but I do agree with his point about Skinner. For us to beat the Spurs when they get Parker back, we'll need to see Skinner on Duncan a lot more, because Parker will shred this switching stuff.

[RFID]

Cheers

..... a much-improved defensive effort by Amaré Stoudemire on Tim Duncan.


Could the Suns control Tim Duncan?


Nope. TD was 15-for-25 and had 17 rebounds to go with his 36 points.

For most of the game, he totally destroyed Amare Stoudemire — spinning, jump hooking, laying in put-backs and securing great position in the pivot.

I am very confused. Are they talking about the same game and same player?

[DrSublime]

i hate when they use the word YEOMAN as a refrence... so annoying..

[blee732]

Seems odd to me that there's some discrepancy around Amare's defense of Duncan. It was clear that he was overmatched everytime Duncan had the ball against him in the post. There was a huge difference between Duncan's play against Amare as opposed to Skinner, who did a great job.

[Velo]

i hate when they use the word YEOMAN as a refrence... so annoying..

yeah, words can be annoying sometimes. i don't like the word pasta, myself.

[Bogyo]

Szia Sub!

Been a long time since I posted - too much work. I have been following tough. Not totally satisfied to say the least.

[ShelC]

To most observers, Monday's victory won't mean much because the Suns eked out a win against a Spurs team missing point guard Tony Parker, out because of an ankle sprain.

Which is exactly the way the Spurs want it. Theyre such bitches i cant even stand it. You know theyre doin that shit on purpose cuz they do it everytime thye play us.

[FrontRowSun]

To most observers, Monday's victory won't mean much because the Suns eked out a win against a Spurs team missing point guard Tony Parker, out because of an ankle sprain.

Which is exactly the way the Spurs want it. Their such bitches i cant even stand it. You know theyre doin that shit on purpose cuz they do it everytime thye play us.

WORD

[FrontRowSun]

Seems odd to me that there's some discrepancy around Amare's defense of Duncan. It was clear that he was overmatched everytime Duncan had the ball against him in the post. There was a huge difference between Duncan's play against Amare as opposed to Skinner, who did a great job.

Agreed.... Duncan could have had 50 & 20 if the Spurs tried hard enough. Amare was owned most of the night.

[FrontRowSun]

Last night I found a great little gem on my Tivo unit. I guess a couple of days ago it taped Game 1 of the Spurs/Suns series in 2003. Watching Amare as a rookie, Steph, Joe Johnson, and even Bo Outlaw brought back some great memories.

1. Amare hitting the 3 pointer to send it to overtime reminded me why we have to ride him till the wheels fall off. Even as a rookie the kid had huge stones. He is my favorite Sun since Hornacek & Barkley.

2. Steph KILLED Tony Parker on most nights they played back then. We probably would have won that series if he didn't hurt his shoulder. I miss him in Purple.

3. Joe Johnson was the victim of a rookie owner, and might be the biggest mistake the Suns have made since DJ was sent to Boston. He could very well have been the extra oomph we needed to get the title. Bowen, Finley, Howard, Stackhouse and the rest could not guard him.

4. We just don't have the chemistry to win a title in my opinion. Bo Outlaw, Scott Williams, and others just kept everyone loose. Is Bo still in the league??? BRING EM BACK!!!

It was a great game to watch, with Steph's game winning runner from three. Watching Duncan's face after the shot was classic.

[UOducks4life]

NBA value has never been higher (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218)

By Bill Simmons
Page 2

GROUND RULES
A quick recap of the rules:

1. Salaries matter. Over this season and the next three, would you rather pay David West $37.9 million or Andrei Kirilenko $63.3 million?

2. Age matters. Would you rather have Rasheed Wallace for the next four seasons or Al Horford for the next 12?

3. Pretend the league passed the following rule: For 24 hours, any player can be traded without cap ramifications. So if Team A tells Team B, "We'll trade you Player X for Player Y," would Team B make the deal or not?

4. Concentrate on degrees. For instance, neither San Antonio nor Orlando would make a Howard-Duncan trade. But at the very least, the Spurs would say, "Wow, Dwight Howard's available?" while the Magic would say, "There's no frickin' way we're trading Dwight Howard." That counts in the big scheme of things.

5. The list runs in reverse order (Nos. 50 to 1). So if Carmelo comes in at No. 14, players 1 through 13 are all players about whom the Nuggets would probably say, "We hate giving up 'Melo, but we definitely have to consider this deal." And they wouldn't trade him straight-up for any player listed between Nos. 13 and 50.

If David Stern stepped to the podium to introduce this column, he'd probably say something like this:

"Hello, everyone, and welcome to America's favorite running column gimmick: Bill Simmons' seventh annual 'Which NBA Player Has The Most Trade Value?' column. We're pleased to announce, for the first time, our league features enough talent that Bill was forced to expand this year's list from 40 players to 50. This is a wonderful sign for the immediate and long-term future of our great league, something that makes me feel better about our sagging attendance figures, the fact we're averaging one late-night shooting incident per month in 2007, and the ongoing humiliation and degradation of our signature franchise ... (dramatic pause) ... the New York Knickerbockers. If you aren't familiar with the rules for this column, please check the sidebar directly to the right. I'm off to frame James Dolan for a triple murder so he's forced to sell his team. Keep the faith, we'll get this done. In the meantime, enjoy the column."

Thank you, David! Before we dive into the Top 50, let's say goodbye to the 2006-07 incumbents who couldn't crack the 2007-08 list:

Boris Diaw (No. 38 last season) signed a $45 million extension and immediately morphed into the French Tim Thomas ... We'll deal with Ron Artest (34) in a second ... Rip Hamilton (33) peaked two years ago and already has 700-plus games on his odometer ... Before he showed signs of life last week, the guy we used to know as "Kirk Hinrich" (28) was replaced by a brooding alien who couldn't shoot and made the mute brother from "Little Miss Sunshine" seem gregarious by comparison ... Shaun Livingston (27) blew out his ACL, PCL, MCL, CFL and USFL ... Ray Allen (26) is too expensive and maybe even a little past his prime ... Jermaine O'Neal (23) is our 2007-08 captain of the "Guys getting paid franchise money who don't feel obligated to carry their franchise" team ... Vince Carter (19) continues to prove he should only be paid on a month-by-month basis and threatened with a taser before every home game ... And poor Shaquille O'Neal (14) looks like he showers in cement before every other game, a slight problem considering he's making $20 million a year through 2009-10.

(Important note: Does anyone else feel a little choked up about Shaq's final appearance in the "Trade Value" column? Since 2001, he was ranked first, first, sixth, sixth, sixth, 14th ... and this year, he's 17th -- only it's 17th on the "Worst 25 Contracts" sidebar that's coming later in the column. I don't know if I'm emotionally prepared to watch Shaq become Artis Gilmore, circa 1985. It hurts. It really does.)

Here were the toughest omissions from this year's Top 50, going from "not as tough" to "agonizingly tough":

Louis Williams: If you made a "Top 10 Things Sixers Fans Are Most Excited About Right Now" list, Billy King's firing would be first; Sweet Lou would be second; the next seven things would be left blank; and No. 10 would be the fact we're seven months away from the 25th anniversary of the Fo-Fo-Fo team winning the '83 title.

Emeka Okafor: Gawd, remember those losers who wrote Orlando was crazy to pick Dwight Howard over him? Morons.

(Note to my editors: Please destroy all remnants of my 2004 Draft Diary from my archives. Delete the column, delete it again, then delete it a third time to be safe. Thanks.)

Ray Felton, Danny Granger, Marvin Williams, LaMarcus Aldridge: All quality bargains because they're still on the rookie scale. Do you see any of them ever making an All-Star team? Me neither. Out of everyone on this list, I like Granger the most ... and I definitely like him more than Channing Frye, Ike Diogu, Yaroslav Korolev, Rashad McCants, Antoine Wright and Joey Graham.

Ron Artest: On paper, he's one of the best values in the league ($7.4 million this season, with a player option for $8.3 million in 2008) ... and yet, only a desperate team such as Miami would pursue him because, you know, he's a certifiable loon and all. Who wouldn't pull the trigger on Artest for Ricky Davis' expiring contract and a top-10 protected first-rounder? Hmmmmmmmm. That would be the craziest trade of all-time -- not the trade itself but the caliber of craziness switching sides. Keep your fingers crossed.

Rip Hamilton and Richard Jefferson: Rip was intriguing because of his reasonable contract (three years, $32.6 million remaining); Jefferson would have been intriguing except for his contract (four years, $54.6 million remaining). By the way, I nominate "Rip" to replace "Rich," "Richie," "Dick" and "Dicky" as the new cool nickname for "Richard." If we called him "Rip Jefferson," wouldn't Jefferson seem more imposing? Same for Rip Seymour, Rip Gere, Rip Hidalgo ... really, everyone except exercise guru Rip Simmons.

Andrei Kirilenko: You know what's not helping? Those four years remaining on his max extension that guarantee him a combined $33 million in 2010 and 2011. Yikes! Hey, doesn't a Jefferson-Kirilenko trade make sense for both Utah and New Jersey, or do I need to enter rehab for my addiction to the NBA Trade Machine?

Rajon Rondo: When you strike the jackpot with a first-round pick in the 20s, it's like a double jackpot because you're locking up a young contributor at an obscenely low price. To wit: Rondo (No. 21 in 2006) and David Lee (No. 27 in 2005) make a combined $11 million total over the next three seasons. That's less than Theo Ratliff's Expiring Contract.

Andre Iguodala: This summer's Gerald Wallace, a quality supporting guy forced to become "The Guy" on a lottery team -- with bad results, of course -- who now wants to be overpaid because he was miscast for a few months as "The Guy." But wait, what would you have done without me. I carried us to 26 wins! Love that logic.

Yi Jianlian: Here's what we know through six weeks: He's worth more money than a typical rookie because of the Chinese marketing ties; he rarely shoots because the Bucks never run plays for him; he's a good athlete and an underrated shot-blocker; he seems to have a high hoops IQ; in person, he jumps out for one good reason (he's so long Jay Bilas would pass out) and one bad reason (he disappears for extended stretches); and if he were really 20 years old, he might have cracked the Top 50. Unfortunately, nobody can figure out the Chairman's exact age. Word on the street is he's at least 22 and possibly two years older than that -- I tried to start a rumor last week that he was really 35, but it didn't take -- making him impossible to project for the future. We're sticking him here to be safe. It remains inexplicable that we can solve murders with the help of a single hair fiber or a drop of saliva, but we can't figure out the exact ages of Cuban baseball players and Asian basketball players.

Jose Calderon: How do you say "fantasy stampede" in Spanish? El stampedio de fantasia? Calderon's monster stretch of starts after two separate T.J. Ford injuries recently (10 games, 107 assists and 15 turnovers until a subpar game against Boston on Sunday) makes him a summer free-agent target for anyone who wants to emulate Phoenix's run-and-gun offense. It also opens the door for a very logical question: Why the hell was Jose Calderon backing up T.J. Ford???

Kevin Martin: This edition's toughest omission because he's re-enacting the first few years of Reggie Miller's career, leaving the door open that, you know, he might become the next Reggie Miller. But given that he just signed a $55 million extension, wouldn't you rather have everyone in the following group at prices ranging from "piddling" to "highway robbery?"

[UOducks4life]

Group J: "Cost-Effective Building Blocks"

50. Leandro Barbosa
Do you realize Nene signed for more money ($60 million) than Barbosa ($33m) and Anderson Varejao ($22m) combined, and yet, he's the worst Brazilian of the three? It's all because he went with the one-name gimmick and they didn't. I'm convinced.

49. Monta Ellis
With apologies to Lou Williams, Ellis is the league's best young combo guard at the best possible price ($770k for this season and next). The only thing I'd change is the spelling of his first name -- he pronounces it "Mon-TAY," only he doesn't spell it "Montay," "Monté," "Montae," "Montaye" or my personal favorite, "Mon'taye." His parents couldn't have worked an extra letter and an apostrophe in there? Is there still time?

48. Rudy Gay
Here's what bugs me about this one: With Gay improbably emerging as the first "gifted lottery pick who dropped solely because teams worried about his work ethic, only he matured after college and turned himself into a future All-Star" since ... um ... actually, I can't even remember the last guy who fits that description ... anyway, hasn't the door been opened for teams ignoring similar motivational red flags with other potential lottery picks because of Gay's success? We know we just spent the No. 5 pick on a forward who fell asleep on the bench during two March Madness games, but hey, it worked out for Memphis with Rudy Gay! In the long run, Gay's career might end up doing more damage than good. Let's keep an eye on this.

47. Andrea Bargnani
Didn't you expect him to be further along this season? What happened? We're three more uninspiring months away from lowering his ceiling from "maybe the next Dirk Nowitzki" to "a fiestier and slightly more talented Memo Okur, only if Okur could make his own marinara sauce."

46. David Lee
Had to be included because of his salary (unconscionably cheap), his per-minute numbers (good enough to make John Hollinger woozy) and the way his unselfish/high-energy game has been wasted on a ragged, surly, me-first anti-team like the Knicks (not his fault). More importantly, Knicks fans would riot outside MSG if Isiah ever traded him. That would be the final straw for them. It would.

(On the other hand, the threat of a full-scale riot outside an NBA arena would normally be enough to make someone "untradeable." But since Isiah Thomas and James Dolan are involved, all bets are off. Is it possible Dolan is hoping for a riot for a giant insurance claim on MSG or something? That's the only rational explanation for not firing Isiah yet, right? Remember we had this conversation if Lee gets traded and the National Guard has to be sent down to East 34th Street.)

45. Brandon Roy
Definitely belongs from a talent/salary/production standpoint, but if his surgically repaired knee scared off four lottery teams before the 2006 draft, wouldn't those same MRIs alarm GMs now? Not to go all Dierdorfian on you, but it's not like we weren't so sure he wasn't really, really good heading into that draft. If teams were afraid to pick him for a specific reason, wouldn't they be afraid to trade for him for that same specific reason? You could make a strong case that he belongs 10-12 spots higher, but I'm sticking him here to be safe.

44. Tayshaun Prince
It's weird when anyone earning $39 million through 2011 can be deemed "cost effective," but when you're paying that sum to an unselfish, playoff-proven, A-plus defender and all-around good guy who shoots 40-plus percent from long range, that's good business. Especially when he's only 27.

43. Andris Biedrins
Every game, he's giving you 25-30 minutes, a double-double, one or two blocks and at least one person in the crowd saying, "What '80s music star does that guy look like? It's driving me crazy!" He also turns 22 in April, and unlike the Chairman, we're reasonably sure it's his exact age.

(The answer to the music question: A cross between Stuart Copeland and John Taylor, with a little of one of the bad guys from "Beerfest" sprinkled in.)

Group I: "You'll Have To Bowl Us Over, But We're Listening"

42. Michael Redd
41. Elton Brand
Elton drops 15 spots, thanks to a torn Achilles that happened six days after I renewed my Clippers season tickets. I feel like he owes me money. Or at least a hug. Anyway, I lumped these guys together because both of them like playing for their respective franchises, which makes them more valuable than normal to those franchises because players aren't sitting around saying, "If I could only play for a perpetually dysfunctional team like the Clippers, that would be a dream come true" and "Man, I know it's great living her in sunny Miami with no state tax and all, but you know where I'd really want to play? Milwaukee! It's freezing cold, and it's not near anything. I guess I can only dream."

(Note to John Paxson: Close your office door before you keep reading and hide all sharp objects. If you want, we'll give you a couple of seconds.)

(Waiting ...)

(Waiting ...)

(OK.)

40. Tyson Chandler
Oof.

39. Pau Gasol
A logical trade candidate considering his salary ($63.3 million over the next four years), his struggle to adjust to the Marc Iavaroni Era (ongoing) and his pedigree (only 27, he's one of the few low-post scorers who commands a double team). So, I'm about to unveil the most logical trade for him. It's so fantastic, you're going to need to walk outside and get some fresh air after you read it. That's how good it is. Ready? Here's the trade:

The Grizzlies save a boatload of money and rebuild around kids (Bargnani, Gay, Mike Conley Jr., Gay, Mike Miller, Kyle Lowry and Darko Milicic) and cap space galore for their inevitable relocation to wherever the hell they're moving some day. And not only does Toronto jump a level in the East, it reunites Gasol and Navarro with Spanish countrymen Calderon and Jorge Garbajosa. Bryan Colangelo wanted to build the ultimate FIBA team -- well, what's better than getting the nucleus of the 2007 Spanish team that won the World Championships, even if one of them is out for the year (Garbajosa)? Tell me which team doesn't make that trade. You can't. That's why I'm the Picasso of the NBA Trade Machine.

38. Marcus Camby
37. Rasheed Wallace
Approaching their mid-30s, both possess higher than usual value because of their big-game experience, defensive prowess, basketball IQ, testicular fortitude and surprisingly appealing contracts. You can win with these guys and continue to win for the next three or four years; that's more appealing than Gasol, who has never won anything. Anyway, Sheed gets the paper-thin edge only because of the inspiring way he re-invented "Jingle Bells", joining the Christmas Song Pantheon along with Band Aid's "Do They Know It's Christmas," Elvis' "Blue Christmas" and the David Bowie/Bing Crosby duet of "Little Drummer Boy."

36. Allen Iverson
Earlier this month, did you notice the night when Boston blew out the Sixers in Philly in front of about 8,500 comatose fans, and a couple of hours later, Iverson exploded for 51 against the Lakers? The lesson, as always: Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER trade a superstar for less than 75 cents on the dollar.

Group H: "Just Know, He's Worth More To Us Than To You"

35. Chris Kaman
To everyone's perpetual shock, the K-Man has evolved into a low-post beast, a guaranteed double team and a darkhorse to become the white Moses Malone. So what if he sucks defensively? After a two-year hiatus when Brad Miller's career went in the tank, we finally have someone to claim the "Best White American Center" championship belt again.

(Note: The K-Man also emerged as a comedic tour de force when we were shooting my "E:60" piece two weeks ago, admitting he hates L.A., describing how he drives his boat into international waters so he can fire guns at fish, and even uttering my single favorite quote of 2007: "I promise to start reading your column as soon as I learn to read." He was joking. We think. I demand a Chris Kaman "Cribs" episode within the next 10 months. )

34. Joe Johnson
I'm hoping for the "Boogie Nights" ending here -- three more years of losing, followed by Johnson showing up like a worn-down Dirk Diggler at Steve Nash's door and sobbing, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry," then asking to rejoin the Suns. Although we can skip the final scene where Joe exposes himself in front of a full-length mirror.

33. Shawn Marion
Nothing has changed on the Marion front except for his appalling 3-point shooting (26 percent!) clinching him the 2007 captaincy on the Charles Barkley Memorial "Guys Who Should Never Shoot 3s Ever Under Any Circumstances" All-Stars. Still, it's hard to imagine any other veteran forward fitting in better with Nash and the Suns.

32. Luol Deng
We're factoring in the very real threat of Deng getting overpaid by about $20 million this summer. Meanwhile, imagine if the Suns hadn't sold the Deng pick in 2004 and the Rondo pick in 2006? The Suns lead the decade in "Imagine If's."

[UOducks4life]

Group G: "We'll Discuss Him, But You Can't Tell ANYONE"

31. Josh Howard
30. Caron Butler
For this season and the next three, would you rather have Butler at $37.5 million or Howard at $42.7 million? I'm going with Tough Juice. Regardless, I'd rather have both guys at these prices than Deng at $70 million.

(Random question: If you had to rank the greatest nicknames in the NBA right now, does anything beat "Tough Juice," with the possible exception of "Black Mamba?" I couldn't love that nickname more -- it's not possible. Also, we need to start calling Vince Carter "Weak Juice." Like, right now.)

29. David West
Remember when everyone kept saying Ben Wallace was underrated, and they kept saying it, and they kept saying it, and finally, he became overrated because nobody would stop talking about how underrated he was? We're about three years away from having this happen to David West. Right now, he's still in the cute-and-cuddly "I can't believe how good he is, he's so underrated!" stage. I love the guy, personally. He's so underrated!

28. Tracy McGrady
I had him eight spots higher until the last second, when I remembered he hasn't won a single playoff series and makes $20 million a year.

27. Gilbert Arenas
26. Chauncey Billups
Here's where you have to love the "Trade Value" game: Who turns down a Billups-Arenas swap, Wizards GM Ernie Grunfeld or Pistons GM Joe Dumars?

The answer? Both would turn it down even though it's a fairly logical trade for both teams. Detroit increases its ceiling as a team (right now, it's second round and out) and gets a blue-chip scorer and gate attraction to keep up with LeBron in the Central; Washington gets an unselfish winner who makes everyone else better and gives it stability for once. That's a nice trade. In the end, Joe Dumars would flinch well before Ernie Grunfeld did -- he'd worry about Gilbert's impending free agency, he'd worry about going over the luxury tax and wrecking his salary structure this summer, and he'd definitely worry about Gilbert's knee problems and the curious way the Wizards came together as a team as soon as Gilbert went away. Ernie would flinch only because of the age difference (four years) and the local ramifications of dealing the most popular Wizard/Bullet in 30 years. Either way, a fun argument.

Group F: "Pretty Much Untouchable"

25. Al Horford
His ceiling: Elton Brand with a better low-post game. I loved how he was traumatized by his inadvertent role in T.J. Ford's latest injury and spent most of the night with Ford at the hospital to make sure he was OK. You want guys like that on your team.

24. Greg Oden
His ceiling: Patrick Ewing, only if Ewing had major wrist surgery and microfracture knee surgery before even playing an NBA game.

23. Josh Smith
His ceiling: Andrei Kirilenko with a better everything. Although the sourpuss worries me. Would you want to pay someone $75 million this summer when he always looks like that?

22. Andrew Bynum
His ceiling: The NBA's best center not named "Dwight Howard" or "Yao Ming."

(Note: During the first 17 drafts of this column, I had Bynum ranked in the 40s because of ongoing concerns about his attitude and conditioning. What happens when he's eligible for a lucrative extension? What happens when he finally gets paid? Can he keep the weight off? Will he go Oliver Miller on us? And isn't he too young to keep breaking out that sourpuss in games when things go wrong? Then I watched him play spectacularly last week against San Antonio and Golden State and couldn't keep him out of the mid-20s. He's just too talented: light feet, great hands, quick ups, superb timing as a shot-blocker ... there's too much to like.)

21. Al Jefferson
His ceiling: The next Kevin McHale, only if McHale couldn't guard anyone. Hey, did you enjoy how I broke the "don't compare white guys with black guys" media rule twice in the same section? I couldn't be prouder.

Group E: "Ridiculous For You AND For Us"

20. Amare Stoudemire
The most likely candidate of any in the top 30 to get traded within the next two months. Look at it from the Suns' side -- they're routinely giving up 55-percent shooting nights, they can't get crunch-time stops and they don't have anyone to guard Tim Duncan (as we witnessed for the umpteenth time Monday night). If you're Steve Kerr and you're looking at a two-year window with the Nash-Marion Era, are you really going to just cross your fingers and hope Amare learns how to play defense between now and June 2009? Or are you going to think, "Hmmmmm, I wonder if I can use Amare to improve my team defensively, gain some financial flexibility and maybe even dump Marcus Banks' contract and pick up a No. 1 pick in the process?"

19. Paul Pierce
Playing efficient, almost-always-unselfish basketball for a really good team with a chance to be great. With that said, he remains the X-Factor for the Celtics -- as much as it seems like he's been cleansed of the Hero Complex, we'll know for sure when Boston's schedule heats up with the Detroit-Chicago-Orlando home games and a slew of tough Western Conference games. Every time I think we're out of the woods, there's a game like last Friday's blowout over Milwaukee, when a hard Bobby Simmons' foul rubbed Pierce the wrong way and led to one of those dopey mano-a-mano duels where Pierce turned into "Teen Wolf" and everyone else stood around and watched him hoist terrible jumpers. As soon as Pierce stops getting caught up in self-serving sequences like that, I'll believe this particular Celtics team can win a championship. And not a moment sooner.

(If you're scoring at home, "The Hero Complex" manifests itself in the following ways during close games: Insistence on making every big play; propensity to make out-of-control drives that lead to offensive fouls; over-eagerness to take advantage of a potential two-for-one by hoisting up a horrible 3; and most important, insistence on being isolated on beat-the-buzzer plays so that everyone can stand around while you dribble for 17 seconds, fake like you're going to the basket, then pull up for a horrendous jumper. The success rate of the buzzer-beating shot by someone suffering from the Hero Complex is roughly 11 percent. And that might be high.)

18. Chris Bosh
Hands down, the most overrated young "star" in the league. How many times can we watch him get outplayed by the likes of Boozer, KG, Duncan, et al. before we say to ourselves, "All right, Chris Bosh just isn't that good?"

(I don't fully believe anything in the previous paragraph -- I just wanted to get the lunatic Raptors fans fired up for 0.9 seconds. Although it should be mentioned KG has effectively destroyed Bosh in both matchups this season, which doesn't bode well for Bosh's ceiling as a player. By the way, it warrants mentioning every year: If Detroit had picked Bosh over Darko, the over/under for Pistons' titles this decade would have been 3½. That's another one of the all-time "What Ifs?")

17. Tony Parker
16. Manu Ginobili
We're sticking them in such high circles partly out of respect (six rings combined) and partly because San Antonio's organization, to its never-ending credit, values chemistry and goodguymanship (I just made that word up) over everything else.

Here's the defining why-the-Spurs-win-and-keep-winning story: They gave away Luis Scola this summer not just for luxury tax reasons, but because they were afraid that Scola, a No. 1 scoring option for Argentina's national team as well as the Euro leagues, wouldn't be able to adjust to playing 20-25 minutes a game as a supporting guy on a great team. They didn't even want to take the chance that he'd mess them up. So they shipped him out. What's even more fascinating is the Spurs have won four titles (and counting) with a specific strategy that nobody else emulated until Boston voyaged down the same defense-character-chemistry path this season. And the Celtics are 20-2 right now. Hmmmm...

[UOducks4life]

Group D: "Only If They Asked to Leave"

15. Baron Davis
Believe me, I examined this from every conceivable angle. Considering his pivotal role in Golden State's resurgence (both with the team and within the Bay Area) and the way NellieBall rejuvenated his career, Davis has made the most significant "just-when-we-thought-it-was-never-happening" jump of any star in recent memory. Even as recently as three years ago, he had one of the 20-25 worst contracts in the league. Now he's a franchise player and a legitimate crunch-time killer. Amazing.

(On a personal note, it's rewarding to watch a talented disappointment for so many years while thinking things like, "Man, if he only attacked the rim instead of just settling for 3s," and "It's too bad he can't realize he's the best all-around player on the floor most nights" ... and suddenly, out of nowhere, the lightbulb goes on and he evolves into the player you always hoped he would be. The cynical side of me believed Davis' "transformation" in last spring's playoffs was a one-time deal, that he'd revert to his dastardly ways this season. Nope. Only a few guys in the league have the testicular fortitude to match big plays with the LeBrons and Kobes of the world, and he's one of them. Of course, the day after I wrote this paragraph, he mailed in a road game in Detroit. Let's just move on before I change my mind.)

14. Carmelo Anthony
When he's surrounded by great players (like with the USA teams the past two summers), 'Melo always rises to the occasion. But when he's leading a relatively dysfunctional Nuggets team, swapping "you-shot-last-time-I-get-to-shoot-this-time" possessions with Iverson, hoisting up bad 3s (did we ever figure out why a 28 percent career 3-point shooter takes three per game?) and shirking his rebounding responsibilities (really, five a game and that's it), it's almost like he plays to the level of his teammates. When you're the Evolutionary Bernard, at some point, don't you have to start playing as hard as Bernard did every night? I don't totally trust that he'll ever "get it," for lack of a better phrase. Then again, he's only 23.

13. Kevin Durant
Worst-case scenario: He's the next George Gervin. Best-case scenario: He's a cross between Gervin and Bob McAdoo, only with Dirk Nowitzki's range and (potentially) MJ's sense of "the moment." Just remember, he's locked up on the rookie scale through 2012 and doesn't turn 20 until Sept. 29, 2008.

12. Dirk Nowitzki
Upon further review, Nowitzki's Chappelle-like summer voyage to Australia was a bad omen: His numbers are down in five relevant categories (points, rebounds and FT/FG/3-point percentage), he's putting up his worst numbers in eight seasons, and we can safely say there has been residual damage from the '06 Finals and '07 playoffs. He's just not the same guy anymore. He's not.

Here's the weird thing: Other than Nick Anderson (who wasn't a superstar like Dirk), I can't remember another good player floundering in his prime purely because of emotional baggage from a couple of tough losses. For instance, Magic Johnson choked three different times in the '84 Finals and bounced back with a monster '85 season. Isiah Thomas threw away the '87 Playoffs on the Bird/DJ steal and came back stronger than ever. Scottie Pippen's infamous migraine swung Game 7 of the '90 Bulls-Pistons series to Detroit and led to a summer of Scottie questions; all the attention toughened him and turned him into a Dream Teamer. Well, what the hell happened to Dirk? What happened to his edge? Why isn't he taking the demise of his superstardom a little more personally? He's like Cole Trickle at the 63-minute mark of "Days of Thunder" right now.

11. Carlos Boozer
You're saying, "Wait a second, Boozer ahead of Dirk???" Well, here's the list of forwards who averaged a 25-12 in one season since the ABA/NBA merger: Barkley, Duncan, Malone. That's it. In a related story, Boozer is averaging a 25-12 through 20 games and shooting 57 percent from the field. And he's three years younger than Nowitzki. And unlike Dirk, he actually has cracked a smile in the past six months. Any more questions?

Group C: "We don't know what the hell to do here"

10. Kobe Bryant
Here's a hint: Don't trade him.

Group B: "Lemme Save You Some Time: N-O."

9. Yao Ming
His untradeableness (probably not a word, but we're going with it) has been heightened by his value because of those aforementioned Chinese marketing ties. (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that it's lucrative to be the preferred NBA team for a country with more than a billion people.) On the flip side, his defense continues to cause problems, and he hasn't had the statistical surge everyone expected from an All-Star center in years five through seven of his career. If anything, he has regressed a little. Right now, he's a rich man's Rik Smits and that's about it.

Here's my question: Looking at the last 10 guys on this list, with the exception of Yao, each of them gives you a legitimate chance to win a title within the next five years as long as they're the best guy on a really good team. Could you say the same about Yao? To this point, no. Even Smits had some huge moments for the Pacers in the mid-'90s and ended up being the most underrated center of his generation. What has Yao done? His value has been completely distorted, as evidenced by the fact Houston never would have offered him straight-up for KG last summer ... even though KG clearly would have made the Rockets a better team. At some point soon, Yao needs to carry a good team or it's never happening. To be continued.

8. Dwyane Wade
The same things that make him great (the whole "knocked down seven times, get up eight" routine) make him an increasingly dangerous bet over the next decade. How much abuse can his body take? Will Wade end up becoming the Earl Campbell of the NBA, someone who flames out after a few glorious years because he took too many hits? Boston fans watched this happened with Larry Bird in the late-'80s, when the reckless mentality that made him special caused his body to break down after the '88 playoffs. His back started acting up, his heels went on him, his back eventually collapsed and that was that. Could we be headed that way with D-Wade? Let's hope not.

(By the way, we keep hearing how Kobe is so "unhappy." Does anyone have a better cause for demanding a trade than Wade? He's playing hurt on a lottery team with an abrasive coach, a washed-up superstar, multiple head cases and exactly two teammates who care about defense; the potential savior of the season is a white point guard who looks like he just fell out of an Abercrombie catalog; they have no cap space until 2010; and he's playing every home game in a half-filled arena. Which star should be more depressed than Wade right now? Nobody, I say.)

7. Kevin Garnett
6. Steve Nash
Both have a profound, day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, season-to-season impact on the styles and personalities of their teams: Nash resonates because of his unselfishness, intensity and monumental skills as an offensive player; Garnett's impact comes from his unselfishness, intensity and his monumental skills as a defensive player. Since they're both retiring with their current teams, it's silly to even figure out where they should be included in a column like this ... but Nash gets the edge because of his contract. It's a shame they couldn't have played together.

(Actually, scratch that -- it's not a shame. My beloved Celtics are 20-2 right now! If they win the title, the owners should make extra championship rings for Kevin McHale and Robert Sarver with "Thank you" engraved on the inside.)

5. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
When I did my preliminary Top 50 podcast with my buddy House two weeks ago, we had Williams pegged in the high teens and never wondered if he should be higher. One week later, the "Williams vs. Paul" debate heated up nationally and made me reconsider everything, especially when foes like Nash weighed in and sang Williams' praises.

Personally, I don't see the debate: Paul is one year younger, he's completely unstoppable off the dribble, he's better than Williams statistically, and he's shining with a lesser supporting cast and an inferior coach for a franchise that has been comically unstable (and continues to be unstable). Good God, what else do you want from a franchise point guard? Williams has turned out to be a terrific pro, but from everything we've seen from Paul these last three years, he's clearly the next Isiah Thomas ... and Isiah was the best player on two championship teams. So I'm going with Paul.

[UOducks4life]

Group A: "Completely and Utterly Untouchable"

3. Tim Duncan
His finishes in the Trade Value column: No. 2 (2001), No. 3 (2002), No. 1 (2003), No. 2 (2004), No. 1 (2005), No. 3 (2006), No. 3 (2007). Now that's impressive.

2. Dwight Howard
You can't even say he improved from April '07 to November '07 -- it's more like he transformed. We knew his scoring and rebounding numbers would eventually resemble Moses Malone's work in the late-'70s, and we knew his athleticism was a perfect fit for the fan-friendly Nash Era, but I always thought he had a little too much David Robinson in him. In other words, he was destined to become this generation's "awesome physical specimen and transcendent character guy who wasn't quite mean enough to be the best player on a championship team."

So imagine my surprise when D-Ho didn't just dominate these first six weeks but showed flashes of a non-Robinson side, getting fiesty after a few hard fouls and relishing the chance to unleash about 50 dunks in traffic. Maybe it wasn't quite like watching Hulk Hogan join the NWO and blacken his beard, but still, there's a consistent edge to Howard's game that Robinson never had. Through seven weeks, Howard has two 30-20 games, one 20-20 games, seven 30-15 games and 22 double-doubles and has a chance to become the first center since Moses to average a 24-15 for an entire season. And he's only 22. And we haven't even mentioned his defense (good and getting better) or the way he protects the rim (superb). If there's a chink in the armor, it's his crummy free-throw shooting. But that's it.

One other bonus with Howard that nobody mentions: Because he's a devout Christian, even when he turns 35 in 2020, those will be Christian years -- he won't have any of that smoking-drinking-partying mileage on him, which means he could play at a high level until his early-40s (much like how Kurt Warner keeps chugging along at age 36). In other words, Howard could and should shatter nearly every rebounding record if he stays healthy, and even if he averages a 23-13 for the next 12 years (a conservative guess), when you throw in his previous three seasons, Howard would suddenly be in striking distance of two-thirds of the conceivable NBA records that ever meant anything. And to think, just seven months ago, I wasn't sure if he was better than Al Jefferson.

1. LeBron James
You know somebody is great when his ceiling as a superstar -- which we raised this season because LeBron finally started treating every regular-season game like a playoff game on both ends of the floor -- manages to trump everything from the previous three paragraphs. Amazing.

One more thing: In my humble opinion, 2007 LeBron and 2007 Howard are more untradeable than anyone in the seven-year history of this "Trade Value" column, even surpassing (gulp) 2001 Shaq and 2002 Duncan. Yup, I think we're in pretty good shape with the National Basketball Association right now.

Until next year.

The 15 most cap-appealing NBA contracts that aren't rookie deals:
15. Jeff Foster: 2 years, $11.9m
14. Josh Howard: 4 years, $39.6m
13. Caron Butler: 4 years, $37.5m
12. David West: 4 years, $37.9m
11. Hedu Turkoglu: 3 years, $20.6m
10. James Posey: 2 years, $6.6m
9. Drew Gooden: 2 years, $13.5m
8. Kendrick Perkins: 4 years, $17m
7. Carlos Boozer: 3 years, $35.9m
6. Ron Artest: 2 years, $16.3m
5. Leandro Barbosa: 5 years, $33m
4. Grant Hill: 2 years, $3.8m
3. Marcus Camby: 3 years, $25.6-$35m
2. Manu Ginobili: 3 years, $29.8m
1. Steve Nash: 3 years, $39.7m

Just for fun, the 25 worst contracts in the league:
25. Quentin Richardson: 3 years, $26.3m
24. Sam Dalembert: 4 years, $43.8m
23. Nene: 5 years, $51m
22. Raef LaFrentz: 2 years, $24.5m
21. Boris Diaw: 5 years, $45m
20. Brian Cardinal: 3 years, $18.9m
19. Marcus Banks: 4 years, $17.2m
18. Jerome James: 3 years, $18.6m
17. Shaquille O'Neal: 3 years, $60m
16. Zack Randolph: 4 years, $63.3m
15. Etan Thomas: 3 years, 20.6m
14. Mark Blount: 3 years, $22m
13. Shareef Abdur-Rahim: 3 years, $18.6m
12. Kenny Thomas: 3 years, $23.9m
11. Jared Jeffries: 4 years, $24m
10. Nazr Mohammed: 4 years, $25m
9. Dan Gadzuric: 4 years, $26m
8. Bobby Simmons: 3 years, $29.8m
7. Ben Wallace: 3 years, $44m
6. Darius Miles: 3 years, $26.3m
5. Stephon Marbury: 2 years, $42m
4. Erick Dampier: 4 years, $41.5m
3. Troy Murphy: 4 years, $42.4m
2. Larry Hughes: 3 years, $38.5
1. Kenyon Martin: 4 years, $59m

[MTSunsFan]

In This Rivalry, Hill Elevates Suns' Hoop IQ
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
(Archive)
SAN ANTONIO -- The Phoenix Suns still have a Tim Duncan problem. They still have banner envy and those deeply sour memories from the 2007 playoffs, too.

The Suns, furthermore, have to be honest about everything that happened when last season's two best teams hooked up for the first time this season. They inflicted the San Antonio Spurs' first home defeat, true, but the hosts weren't whole.

The objective conclusion Monday night? It's too early to say we've seen any sort of shift in the NBA's saltiest rivalry. The Suns didn't try to dispute that conclusion, either, not even after unexpectedly producing the better crunch-time defense in a 100-95 triumph.

However …

You have to give Phoenix this right away: If Grant Hill hadn't already erased most of the skepticism about how he'd fit in with the run-and-gunners, this performance had to.

Hill can't guard Duncan, no. Nor will Hill be checking Tony Parker when these teams meet next, assuming Parker is healthy enough to play. On this night, though, you noticed all the little things that Hill does add to the Suns more than you pined for Parker's (or fellow absentee Francisco Elson's) presence.

"I think it makes their basketball IQ go up," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said of the Hill acquisition, "and it helps 'em defensively also."

You'll recall that there were considerable doubts when Hill was signed in the summer that his legs and limited shooting range could work for Phoenix offensively That's the same Hill who, at 35, made an impact all over the floor here, delivering an efficient 22 points, seven boards and three blocks in just under 32 minutes … highlighted by a sneaky, timely weak-side swat on Duncan inside that helped swing the late momentum to the Suns.

Yet Hill was already convinced that he made the right free-agent choice by picking the Suns over the Spurs. He was convinced long before the Suns managed to limit Duncan to 12 points in the second half, two points in the final 7:21 and 36 overall, when it looked initially like TD might rumble for 50 on that sore knee and ankle.

"For me, the last seven years have been nothing but skepticism when you mentioned my name," Hill said, referring to the myriad foot problems that have haunted him since his summer-of-2000 move from Detroit to Orlando. "So I understand it."

"But with my game? I think I can fit in anywhere."

That naturally includes San Antonio, which was a tempting option after Duncan and Hill so nearly teamed up with the Magic at the start of this millennium. They're longtime friends who share an agent (Lon Babby) and even took their recruiting trip to Orlando together.

Hill, however, ultimately opted for the team that has never won it all … and met with Popovich briefly Monday so both could say "no hard feelings." He concluded that helping the Suns end their four-decade title drought -- and helping them narrow the IQ and maturity gap with San Antonio -- would be more rewarding than joining the Spurs' bid to repeat as champs for the first time.

"It was kind of like when I first got to Duke," Hill said. "They had gotten close, but hadn't won. This team is close."

As for believing he could make the sort of difference seen Monday, Hill added: "I got an ego, yeah."

Hill extends the analogy to compare Suns vs. Spurs to yesteryear's Blue Devils vs. Tar Heels, at a time when only Carolina could call itself a proven champion. The Suns need every bit of self-belief and poise they can muster to invalidate that comparison, which is one reason they're so grateful to have Hill now. (Another, of course, is the fact that he's averaging nearly 16 points on 50-percent shooting for a mere $3.8 million this season and next.)

Making his debut in this rivalry -- "I'm the rookie," he insisted -- Hill surprised Duncan with his block when the game was tied at 88-88, calmly sank a clutch go-ahead jumper with 39.8 seconds left and earned himself a trip to the line for two big free throws after pulling in the rebound on Bruce Bowen's errant 3-pointer from the corner. Throw in an unlikely late steal from Boris Diaw when an out-of-sorts Manu Ginobili (18 points on 6-for-19 shooting) seemed certain to dribble by -- "My one steal per season," Hill quoted Diaw as saying -- and just enough second-half resistance in the post from Diaw, Brian Skinner and Amare Stoudemire against Duncan and suddenly San Antonio is 13-1 at the AT&T Center.

"We were doing the ol' rope-a-dope … trying to get him tired," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni joked of Duncan scoring 24 virtually unopposed points in the first half. "I don't want to take away too much because he's just coming off an injury, but I thought we did a better job."

In the second half? The Suns did do a bit better nudging Duncan farther off the block, while Stoudemire made his presence felt at the finish with a big dunk and bigger offensive rebound and free throws after Duncan dominated for so long.

Yet there would be no crowing from the victorious visitors. Especially not from D'Antoni, who left little doubt why at the morning shootaround, hours before tipoff. "See those things they got up there?" D'Antoni said, pointing to San Antonio's four championship banners.

And afterward?

"It's only December," D'Antoni cautioned. "If we meet up with them later on [in the playoffs], it'll be two different teams again."

But Hill is clearly part of the story now … health permitting.

"That's 25 games in a row," Hill said. "I haven't done that since I was in Detroit. I don't even know if I did that in Detroit."

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-071218&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2

[jed]

20. Amare Stoudemire
The most likely candidate of any in the top 30 to get traded within the next two months. Look at it from the Suns' side -- they're routinely giving up 55-percent shooting nights, they can't get crunch-time stops and they don't have anyone to guard Tim Duncan (as we witnessed for the umpteenth time Monday night). If you're Steve Kerr and you're looking at a two-year window with the Nash-Marion Era, are you really going to just cross your fingers and hope Amare learns how to play defense between now and June 2009? Or are you going to think, "Hmmmmm, I wonder if I can use Amare to improve my team defensively, gain some financial flexibility and maybe even dump Marcus Banks' contract and pick up a No. 1 pick in the process?"

Dammit.

I was hoping I was out on a limb with my theory about Amare getting traded, but it seems that greater minds than mine are seeing the same thing.

Let it be known that I am officially starting the "If we do this dumb trade, then let it be for Al Horford" campaign. Moving our cornerstone big man would almost necessiate moving for another of quality -- one with a nice guy rep, rather than an edge.

[Wormwood]

If Amare gets moved, I could see Camby and Najera + picks as the result. Camby's sepreme defensive prowess, athleticism, rebounding, and terrirfic passing skills would make him a good fit in Phoenix. Of course, this would set us up for an even bigger crash down the line, but if the goal is to win it all this year, Camby would probably help.

[MTSunsFan]

IF we trade Amare, it's going to be extremely difficult for me to continue being a Suns fan period.

[Wormwood]

Even if it somehow made the team better?

[UOducks4life]

Suns trade for Arenas and Horford. (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2166~1727~3213~2016~959~974&teams=27~1~21~27~27~21&te=&cash=) Just for you Jed.

It's not the worst trade in the world but it would also never happen.

[Squeege63]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AsB254T7VBoIk2xvjhzA.845nYcB?slug=jy-horry121707&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


No hard feelings toward Horry
By Johnny Ludden, Yahoo! Sports
December 17, 2007

Johnny Ludden
Yahoo! Sports

SAN ANTONIO – So Robert Horry steps into an elevator in San Diego this summer and immediately notices a married couple sizing him up.

"You're tall," says the woman, "and you look familiar."

Horry smiles and looks at the woman's husband, who, apparently more versed in NBA personnel than his wife, grins back.

"Do you play basketball?" asks the woman.

ADVERTISEMENT
"Yes."

"Do you play pro basketball?"

"Yes."

"Who do you play for?"

"The San Antonio Spurs."

"What's your name?"

"Robert Horry."

"That sounds familiar. … Wait, oh. … that's right. You beat us."

The husband laughs then introduces himself to Horry. Turns out he's a minority owner of the Phoenix Suns.

"I told him, 'No hard feelings?' " Horry said, recalling the story this week. "He said, 'No. Congratulations. You're from the old school. I respect your game.' "

Well, that makes one person in Phoenix.

It's safe to say Robert Horry's fan club isn't drawing too many members from the 602 area code these days. Phoenix residents will at least be happy to know Horry's rear was firmly planted on the bench in the closing minutes of the Suns' 100-95 victory over the Spurs Monday in San Antonio.

That wasn't the case seven months ago. Then, with the Suns trying to bleed the final seconds of their Game 4 victory against the Spurs, Horry knocked Steve Nash into the scorer's table, triggering a scrum that resulted in the suspension of not only Horry, but also Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw.

Stoudemire and Diaw were reprimanded by NBA commissioner David Stern for leaving the bench during the altercation, a ruling that didn't have, Phoenix coach Mike D'Antoni said at the time, "a shred of fairness or common sense." Forced to take the court without two of their top players, the Suns narrowly lost Game 5 before the Spurs closed out the second-round series two nights later in San Antonio.

The Suns returned to the AT&T Center Monday for the first time since the loss, and the seven months away seemed to have softened some emotions. Stoudemire said he was disappointed to watch the Spurs in the Western Conference finals last season, but claimed to hold "no grudges." Nash said he has "nothing against Robert at all."

"Everybody can have their opinion on what happened, but at the end of the day you still have to go out there and play," Suns forward Shawn Marion said. "It's our job. Regardless what happened last year, that's in the past. You can't turn back the hands of time."

Few people know that better than Horry. He turned 37 in August and is in the last year of his contract with the Spurs. He hasn't ruled out putting off retirement another year, but traded in his No. 5 jersey this season for 25 because that's what he wore when he began his career in Houston.

"I figure if I wear 25," Horry said, "I might be able to capture some of that youth when I used to be able to dunk on everybody."

Horry isn't expecting that to happen anytime soon. Only recently has he even begun to fully gather his legs under him. He spent the first 16 games on the inactive list after a trying preseason that saw him fret away most of his time in a Houston hospital hoping his daughter, Ashlyn, would survive a bout with pneumonia.

Born without part of her first chromosome, Ashlyn has a weakened immune system that makes her susceptible to infection. She has been in and out of hospitals for most of her 14 years.

"This time it was harder," Horry said. "We just had to wait it out."

Ashlyn's perseverance, Horry has long said, has taught him that his life need not be measured by the outcome of a single game. That attitude has helped make him one of the game's greatest clutch performers as well as the owner of seven championship rings.

"I just look at it like you're going out there and having fun," Horry said. "If you throw me the ball, I shoot it and it goes in, hooray. If I miss it, oh well. Hopefully it's not a Game 7 and you live to fight another day."

More often than not, Horry has lived to fight. Game 3 of the 1995 NBA Finals. Game 3 of the 2001 NBA Finals. Game 6 of the 2002 Western Conference finals. Game 5 of the 2005 NBA Finals. Coast to coast, rim to rim, Horry's fearless shooting has broken the hearts of opponents. Few players have been jeered in more arenas than Horry, so much so that he has come to embrace the role of visiting villain.

"When you go into Sacramento and get booed, it's fun because you know you did your job," Horry said. "It's fun when you go into Philly and get booed because you know you did your job."

Phoenix, however, is different. Horry has had a poor relationship with the Suns and their fans ever since he spent the first half of the 1996-97 season in Phoenix after the Rockets traded him and Sam Cassell there for Charles Barkley. Horry never wanted to leave Houston and he never wanted Danny Ainge as his coach. His tumultuous stay in the desert culminated with him tossing a towel at Ainge as he sat on the bench.

"Usually you have some good times when you're (with a team)," Horry said. "When I was in Phoenix there were no good times. It was a bad situation coming in there. They lied about Sam and I saying we demanded money. I know talking to Sam he didn't want money because he didn't want to stay in Phoenix. I know I didn't want money because I didn't want to stay in Phoenix. I just wanted my contract to end.

"I had the animosity against Danny Ainge from playing against him – he hit (former Rockets guard) Mario (Elie) in the face with the ball. It was a lot of stuff that boiled up. I made the mistake of throwing a towel in Danny's face and after that I have been booed.

"After the hard foul on Steve Nash, I'm even more reviled."

So much so that when Horry and the Spurs returned to Phoenix for Game 5, a bomb threat was phoned into their hotel. Horry said he received two death threats on his room's voice mail.

"It didn't rattle me," Horry said. "You expect that from cowards."

Horry's only regret about the incident was that he didn't get over to Nash quick enough to take a charge. Had he fell to the ground with Nash he figures no one would have paid much attention to the foul. By continuing to stand, however, Horry appeared to measure Nash for the hit before turning away ruthlessly and walking toward the bench.

Horry doesn't think Stoudemire and Diaw merited suspensions and he thinks his own punishment should have been cut short by a game. He's still bitter toward the league for the $60,000 he lost in pay because he didn't know the amount was going to be that large until it was missing from the playoff check he received after the season.

"That's the NBA for you," Horry said. "They will screw you when they can."

The Suns and their fans, of course, have every right to feel like they received the worst end of Horry's hit. And while there were no hip checks on Monday, Horry again crumpled Nash to the floor by sandwiching him against Bruce Bowen with a hard foul in the third quarter. Horry would go on to finish with four rebounds, one steal and a technical for jawing at the officials too long. He took just one shot, but Spurs coach Gregg Popovich thought enough of Horry's basketball acumen to start him in the second half, just as he did four nights earlier in Los Angeles against the Lakers.

"It seems some nights he's not going to shoot the ball because he doesn't really feel it and some nights he's letting it fly," Popovich said. "So I never really know about that. The thing I do know is he's going to try to block shots, he's going to defend, he's going to make some intelligent plays you can't coach.

"He's going to make plays that help you win playoff games. I know I can always count on that."

The playoffs are still four months away. Four months for Horry to strengthen his legs and sharpen his shot. Between now and then, he's got two trips to make to Phoenix, the first coming on Jan. 31.

"You know me," Horry said, smiling. "I'm already looking forward to that."

Johnny Ludden covers the NBA for Yahoo! Sports Send Johnny a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[AmareisMiAmore]

Is there anyway to get Redd away from Milwaukee? I have never before been on the trade Marion bandwagon, but Marion just doesn't seem to have the same love for playing with the Suns that he once did.

Redd is higher on the lisst than Marion. Would they take him straight up? Can we throw in Banks plus Atlanta pick, Tucker maybe? The Suns need a killer three point threat and Redd fills that to the nth degree. Maybe Gadzuric as well? Hell send us over Awvee for some of the ASU fans.

[AmareisMiAmore]

42 Redd
33 Marion

[Squeege63]

From ESPN's True Hoop Section

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-406/What-can-Phoenix-Take-Away-from-Beating-San-Antonio-.html


What can Phoenix Take Away from Beating San Antonio?

December 18, 2007 11:08 AM

Did you see that game? (Here are the highlights.)

The Suns won, which must feel great. But a lot of what happened last night probably won't happen if these two teams see each other in the playoffs. For instance:

* San Antonio was without Tony Parker.
* San Antonio was 5-23 from three-point range.
* San Antonio had four more turnovers than Phoenix.
* San Antonio has not played their best basketball this year.

But there are a couple of permanent positive signs for Phoenix.

A non-trivial one was Boris Diaw getting a much-needed injection of confidence from making the play of the game. He has been a fantastic player at times in the past. If he is really perking back up, Phoenix is getting a free player compared to last year.

And of course it's no secret (as Marc Stein pointed out) Grant Hill made himself handy.

Remember how Phoenix used Kurt Thomas against Tim Duncan in the playoffs last year? He played great defense, and when he wasn't tired he hit some jumpers. But he just ran out of gas. And meanwhile, he kept some of the Suns' jackrabbits on the bench -- which costs points.

Then they let him go, which upset a lot of fans, and have his roster spot to Grant Hill.

Whoa, many thought, you can't win a title without beating the Spurs, the Spurs are led by Tim Duncan, and you're telling me you're giving up your designated Duncan-stopper? How does Grant Hill fit in the strategy to beat San Antonio?

Duh! It just hit me.

The Spurs have acknowledged that their defensive approach is to not allow uncontestd layups or three-pointers. They have picked their poison, and their thought is: if you are going to beat us, show us your mid-range game.

And Grant Hill says "OK!"

Look at the shot chart for Hill. Besides a couple of layups, he shot from the mid-range all game and didn't miss much. That's something. And if San Antonio game plans for that next time, Hill is a willing passer who can make them pay.

[SpecialSauce]

If we trade Amare for Camby, that will go down as one of the worst trades in NBA history.

I wouldn't trade Amare unless it was for:

1. Dwight Howard
2. Tyson Chandler AND Chris Paul (I don't care if NO wouldn't do it)
3. Kobe and Ronny Turiaf

[Wormwood]

Ummmm... I read that article above. First he lauds us for letting KT go because he didn't fit the system, then he lauds us for picking up a great mid-range jump shooter because that's something the Spurs leave open.

Lest we forget, KT had just about the best mid-range game on the team, AND he could guard Duncan for 20-25 minutes a night.

As for Amare, his poor defense, average at best rebounding, and injury history make his value around the league a lot lower than you think Saucy. Don't forget, this team was tearing it up in December-February 2005-2006 without Amare, Grant, JR, and a Barbosa who was wounded and playing at a lot lower level than he is now. Our defense and rebounding is our achilles heel at the moment.

[sehan]

Trading Amare at this point would have to be a loosing proposition for sure. We would either have to trade for more defensive stopper, but with less talent and less future. Or we would have to trade for lesser proven talent, a la Al Horford.

Either way we have either give up our future or give up our chance to win now. Both are loosing propositions for me.

Amare has the intangibles to be a winner at all levels and mark my words, before it is all said and done, with jump or no jump, he will find a way to be a force and a super star in this league. If we do trade him, I am betting it will go down as one of the dumbest moves ever in the same category as Kobe for Vlade.

[sehan]

As for Amare, his poor defense, average at best rebounding, and injury history make his value around the league a lot lower than you think Saucy. Don't forget, this team was tearing it up in December-February 2005-2006 without Amare, Grant, JR, and a Barbosa who was wounded and playing at a lot lower level than he is now. Our defense and rebounding is our achilles heel at the moment.

Yeah and don't forget what happen in the playoffs of 2005 - 2006 season without Amare. Granted we got to western finals, but a lot had to do with fortuitous seed placement (didn't have to play spurs). Even then, we had to labor through Lakers and Clippers with several lucky bounces going our way.

Bottom line, with the playoff game 7 on the line who would you want as your post offensive big man to take the big shots and take it to the hole for "and -1s". Doris?

Running style or not, only team to win championships without a dominant big man was Chicago and we don't have MJ. (Instead we have MB).

[Wormwood]

Sehan,

Here's my take. I think that if Raja and KT had both been healthy (and in shape, in KT's case sice he had a afoot injury) we probably would have taken Dallas out. We led every game in that series at halftime. We were right there in it, and lest we forget we were absolutely destroying teams for the middle three months of the season, and were top five in defensive effeciency. This team has the potential to be even better, but right now our rebounding and defense are holding us back. This switching defense crap gives up too much in the paint, and allows too many lay ups. The best defensive unit we ever put out out there was one where everyone stayed on their man, and we had a guy to anchor the middle so out perimeter defenders could stay home and not give up the three point shot.

With the team we have now, we can't employ an optimal defensive startegy because we're always coving up for Amare's lack of post defense. Nash's poor defense doesn't help much, but IMHO it's not as damaging as teams continually isolating on Amare. That just leads to fouls and poor defense by our team. It's a good counter strategy to the Suns, and teams are pretty much universally using it.

[Squeege63]

Ummmm... I read that article above. First he lauds us for letting KT go because he didn't fit the system, then he lauds us for picking up a great mid-range jump shooter because that's something the Spurs leave open.

Lest we forget, KT had just about the best mid-range game on the team, AND he could guard Duncan for 20-25 minutes a night.

As for Amare, his poor defense, average at best rebounding, and injury history make his value around the league a lot lower than you think Saucy. Don't forget, this team was tearing it up in December-February 2005-2006 without Amare, Grant, JR, and a Barbosa who was wounded and playing at a lot lower level than he is now. Our defense and rebounding is our achilles heel at the moment.

Basically he is saying that by trading KT we opened up room for skinner, who did a pretty decent job on Duncan last night, just slightly worse than KT, and opened a spot for Grant Hill who is deadly inside the arc and plays a much more fluid game, which could kill the Spurs.

[jed]

I think that if we trade Amare right now, it's going to be very hard to get value for value. That said, we would need to grab 4/5 who has some serious upside and a nice guy attitude.

Dwight Howard would be the ultimate expression of this sentiment. But there is no way that would happen now, as Dwight looks to be the better of the two right now. Right now, I think Horford would be a smart move in a dumb situation -- one of the few.

[jed]

If Amare gets moved, I could see Camby and Najera + picks as the result. Camby's sepreme defensive prowess, athleticism, rebounding, and terrirfic passing skills would make him a good fit in Phoenix. Of course, this would set us up for an even bigger crash down the line, but if the goal is to win it all this year, Camby would probably help.

Suns fans would revolt. As well as they should.

[Wormwood]

Yeah, but we only played Skinner for 13 minutes last night, some of it when TD was not on the floor. D'Antoni's defensive strategy on SA last year was a good one. What we're doing now, Using mostly Amare and Diaw on TD, is a recipe for disaster. There's a point where the "smaller and quicker creates a mis-match at the other end too" philosophy ceases to work. If it were true, why not play 5 point guards together? The answer is that you would get killed. Well, it still holds true when you're playing undersized people in the frontcourt.

[Squeege63]

Yeah, but we only played Skinner for 13 minutes last night, some of it when TD was not on the floor. D'Antoni's defensive strategy on SA last year was a good one. What we're doing now, Using mostly Amare and Diaw on TD, is a recipe for disaster. There's a point where the "smaller and quicker creates a mis-match at the other end too" philosophy ceases to work. If it were true, why not play 5 point guards together? The answer is that you would get killed. Well, it still holds true when you're playing undersized people in the frontcourt.

I agree with that and we have a while for Coach to figure that out and 2-3 more games against SA to have Skinner put in more time against Duncan.

The question we really have this year but didn't have last year against the spurs, is if we are going to have Skinner play (possibly even start) who do we pull from the lineup? We need Nash's distribution, We need Bells perimeter D and 3 point shooting, We need Hills mid-range shooting and versatility, we need Marion's overall contributions, we need Amare's inside prescence.

Last year, we could remove Diaw relatively easily. This year, its not that easy to say who would go to the bench.

[Wormwood]

Squeegee,

I'd use SKinner on offense exactly the same way we used KT. Park him on the wing at about 10-15 feet and let him shoot mid-range shots. When he doesn't take the shot, it should be his job to crash the glass as soon as the ball goes up, bot on offense and defense. He's quick enough to get a few put backs off of offensive rebounds that way. He's not as good as KT at the mid-range game, but he has demonstrated good profeciency.

I'm OK with Amare on TD for a few minutes a game. It's inevitable given our lack of depth. But given the players we have now, it makes a lot more sense to give Skinner 20-25 minutes out there. He isn't much of an offensive player, but as long as he can hit that mid-range shot consistently he could average 10 ppg in our offense give those 20 minutes.

Diaw, Marion, Bell, and Hill could all lose a few minutes to Skinner without screwing any one player over. D'Antoni would just have to be a bit more flexible with his rotations (heaven forfend).

[Shabazz]

For all this talk about trading Amare I haven't heard anyone suggest a single suitable replacement for him. A trade for Camby or Chandler or Rasheed makes us a better defensive team, but it also turns us into the Chicago Bulls. 4 Shooters (2 of whom can hit 3s) and a defensive big man in the middle.

We NEED a low post scoring threat to win a title. Amare is one of the best. Without him we are live by the jumper, die by the jumper and our jumper isn't what it used to be.

Everyone knows Amare's defense hasn't been the best, but his knees aren't 100%. They will get better as the season goes along and so will his defense.

As bad as last night's matchup looked, it was by design. Amare single-covered Duncan most of the night and got the occasional double to help him out as the Suns forced the other players to beat them. By contrast every time Amare touched the ball he was swarmed. I don't know many players in the NBA who can guard TD one on one all game while also providing something on the other end.

I said it in the last game post too, but when Amare was putting up 37 a game in the 05 conference finals, no one was calling Duncan a crappy defender. They were praising the Spurs for their brilliant defensive scheme.

[Phoenix219]

Why did it say that Kevin Durant will be playing on the rookie scale until 2012? Don't rookie contracts only last 2-3 years?

[DrSublime]

I said it in the last game post too, but when Amare was putting up 37 a game in the 05 conference finals, no one was calling Duncan a crappy defender. They were praising the Spurs for their brilliant defensive scheme.

indeed!!!!111

[jed]

Yeah, but we only played Skinner for 13 minutes last night, some of it when TD was not on the floor. D'Antoni's defensive strategy on SA last year was a good one. What we're doing now, Using mostly Amare and Diaw on TD, is a recipe for disaster. There's a point where the "smaller and quicker creates a mis-match at the other end too" philosophy ceases to work. If it were true, why not play 5 point guards together? The answer is that you would get killed. Well, it still holds true when you're playing undersized people in the frontcourt.

Anyone who watched Duncan during the first half last night knows that's all true. But still, Suns fans would freak out if we only got bck Camby and Nejera for Amare. That's a God-awful trade. It addresses a few concerns of today and does nothing for tomorrow. Plus, it drops a star player -- an NBA first teamer -- for an aging, broken center and a roleplayer.

I'd be the first in the mob to light my torch if we did something like that.

[cap]

To most observers, Monday's victory won't mean much because the Suns eked out a win against a Spurs team missing point guard Tony Parker, out because of an ankle sprain.

Which is exactly the way the Spurs want it. Theyre such bitches i cant even stand it. You know theyre doin that shit on purpose cuz they do it everytime thye play us.

And yet they still beat us most of the time.

[misteradiant]

With that said...

with heavy winds a heart pounds the rhythm of the mistakes of men
i am one
calling time for a second try
when jesus came he must have made her very happy
she held him and wrapped him and laid him down to die
if i could make her remember those moments where she was the love of god
and i a simple worker with the word resting on my tongue
time and distance
would shrink when we once again
become one

[misteradiant]

I think that if we trade Amare right now, it's going to be very hard to get value for value. That said...

yes, you said that.

neckties
a noose not yet hooked at the other end
a leash
the burnt husk of what was once a soul
dried up by fluorescent lights
caged in cubicles
ITT technical school
your poetry cannot get you laid
cannot expose anything when nothing is there
nobody understands you!
cry out the obvious
my advice
read the bible literally and wait for what never comes
the mediocrity of thoughtlessness is death.

[misteradiant]

oh god. this has turned into a trade scenario thread. you guys suck. no wonder longtime posters are bailing. even i have had enough.

[Nate]

Ummmm... I read that article above. First he lauds us for letting KT go because he didn't fit the system, then he lauds us for picking up a great mid-range jump shooter because that's something the Spurs leave open.

Lest we forget, KT had just about the best mid-range game on the team, AND he could guard Duncan for 20-25 minutes a night.

Umh? Wormwood, could you let me in on what is so good or great about Kurt Thomas midrange game. Or did you want to tell us that we didnt had a midrange game, so the Grant Hill update was more than necessary.

Regarding Kurt's midrange game, I can't come up with anything else than an at times pretty unreliable midrange shot, which he fired basically only from a few set positions on the court. He was not moving around that much other than trying to set a screen and didnt really make our O fluent.

Grant Hill on the other hand moves around quite a lot and has a knack for finding the seams in the D. He doesnt only threaten the opposing D with a reliable jumper, he also pressures the D by driving to the hoop and hitting you with sweet assists. Basically, he helps us to open up the D. Additionally, Hill usually gets to the line at least a few times a game.

My take and question is not about Kurts D on Duncan, where we both know that Hill certainly isnt the answer.

[misteradiant]

kurt had a nice midrange jumper but grant's midrange game is so much more expansive and explosive than kurt's wide open 15 footers. it is hard to believe you think they cancel each other out, worm.

your fixation on a player we traded this summer is mildly disturbing. he isn't here. probably best to get over it.

[jed]

oh god. this has turned into a trade scenario thread. you guys suck. no wonder longtime posters are bailing. even i have had enough.

I'd rather not. I'd rather see the Suns just do whatever it is they're gearing up to do and rip the bandaid off quick-like.

It's all just getting really old.

[jed]

yes, you said that.

neckties
a noose not yet hooked at the other end
a leash
the burnt husk of what was once a soul
dried up by fluorescent lights
caged in cubicles
ITT technical school
your poetry cannot get you laid
cannot expose anything when nothing is there
nobody understands you!
cry out the obvious
my advice
read the bible literally and wait for what never comes
the mediocrity of thoughtlessness is death.

Ah, the thinly veiled jab. I'm snapping in applause.

[ShelC]

Lest we forget, KT had just about the best mid-range game on the team, AND he could guard Duncan for 20-25 minutes a night.

You cant compare KTs midrange game and Hills. KT is a big and Hill is a perimeter player. Having KT be able to step out a bit and knock down a shot to bring TD out of the paint was a big help. But it was only really affecting 1player on SA and that was TD.

Having Hills ability to shoot off the dribble from the perimeter may be more important. One of our many problems in the past has been SA takng away our 3pt shooting ability. They successfully ran our players off the 3pt line, making them dribble drive into help defense or pull up for a shot they didnt want or couldnt make. Eddie House, QRich, Barbs, Raja, JR all had trouble with this adjustment....the guys that did have some success were JJax and JJ because they could still knock down the midrange shot. Hill has that ability as well, along with the ability to slice into the paint and score with his amazing body control and finishing ability or pass out of the dribble penetration to a 3pt shooter (barbs, Raja, stevie) who should be left open if their man is helping down on Hill. Its a huge advantage for us and a big adjustment SA will have to make down the line.

Regarding the Amare trade possiblities...we'd have to be making sure, like we said with shawn, that we'd only be making a trade that improves us. The 2guys that make the most sense are probably Camby and Sheed. Camby makes up for all of our defensive shortcomings and covers up a lot of mistakes. His contract is one of the best in the league, he's been healthy the past 2 years, and can pass and shoot from 16ft. Adding a guy like Najera would give us another team guy, hustler/hardworker who can board, take charges, play the 3/4 effectively (maybe even some 5) and work inside and out. He's also an expiring contract, tho that may be a disadvantage just the same. That said, would us and the nuggets talk about such a deal when we're competing for the same thing. Would we want to see Amare in a nuggets uniform for at least the next 4 years?

Sheed....he'd probably fit in better with this team. A heady veteran who wants to win, knows how to really play the game, can work inside or out effectively, rebound and block shots. I'd be concerned that he'd float too much on the outside with our system and coaching staff. Hes really one of the more dominant back-to-the-basket players in the league, but almost has to be forced down there by the coaches. His contract is a good one as well considering its up after next year, tho it really only gives us this year and next year for a window to win unless a reasonable extension were worked out. Throw in a young player like Flip to give us possibly another bench scorer for depth and it might work.

The long term ramifications of trading amare are well known. But Kerr probably sees the same thing a lot of us do. Amare cant be the defensive anchor we need against the elite teams and doesnt seem to fit well with the team game we're trying to play.

[UOducks4life]

Why did it say that Kevin Durant will be playing on the rookie scale until 2012? Don't rookie contracts only last 2-3 years?

I think all 1st round picks can be extended after 3 years for an additional 2 years at the scale of their rookie contract.

[MTSunsFan]

The long term ramifications of trading amare are well known. But Kerr probably sees the same thing a lot of us do. Amare cant be the defensive anchor we need against the elite teams and doesnt seem to fit well with the team game we're trying to play.

Why do we expect Amare to be this so called defensive anchor? We need someone else here to combine w/ him IMHO. Someone to be this defensive anchor and subsequently take the pressure off of Amare and free him up to do what he does best -- put the freakin' ball in the hoop...

[Shabazz]

I think all 1st round picks can be extended after 3 years for an additional 2 years at the scale of their rookie contract.

1st rounder Rookie contracts are now 2 years guaranteed with the 3rd and 4th year at the teams option. The 5th year the team can present a qualifying offer to the player.

[fixxxer]

I would LIKE the Suns to sport another defensive intimador, preferrably a 5. However, if said hypothetical defensive intimidator doesn't have a consistant J and/or cannot run, he'd be rendered redundant to Skinner and one of them wouldn't get burn.

Which sorta defeats the purpose of any speculatory trade since guys like that certainly aren't available for what the Suns'd (consider the apostrophe to simultaneously stand for the first four letters of both would and should) be willing to trade. Namely, Banks, Pike and the Atlanta pick, which continues to diminish in value.

[ShelC]

Why do we expect Amare to be this so called defensive anchor? We need someone else here to combine w/ him IMHO. Someone to be this defensive anchor and subsequently take the pressure off of Amare and free him up to do what he does best -- put the freakin' ball in the hoop...

I dont disagree with you, but thats the route we've taken with this team and Amare. We want to go smaller and faster and that means Amare at the 5 so the responsibility falls on him now. Its not his fault thats hes been put in that position, but thats where we stand right now as a team.

[Phoenix219]

1st rounder Rookie contracts are now 2 years guaranteed with the 3rd and 4th year at the teams option. The 5th year the team can present a qualifying offer to the player.

So a team can force a player to play on the rookie scale in his 3rd and 4th year? So no players will ever get a big payday now until their 5th year unless the team chooses to release them frmo the team option earlier? Which most teams woudln't do with a good rookie?

[Billyjoejimbob]

Why do we expect Amare to be this so called defensive anchor? We need someone else here to combine w/ him IMHO. Someone to be this defensive anchor and subsequently take the pressure off of Amare and free him up to do what he does best -- put the freakin' ball in the hoop...


I don't think I expect Amare to do anything on defense, but I know he's capable. I know that with his athletic ability he should be able to be at least as good of a defender and rebounder as Skinner, but he's not. I agree that it would probably be better to have somebody play along side Amare to play defense, but I'm not sure that is going to happen, at least with this coach. I think Skinner would compliment him well on the defensive end, but it probably won't happen. I never have understood why D'Antoni can't see the advantage of having a good defensive big man to block shots and get rebounds and then start the fast break. It seems like a good idea to me, but any way I'm just rambling now so.......

[fixxxer]

I agree with those who said that Skinner ought to be playing between 20 and 25 mpg, with some of those minutes coming alongside Amare. The Suns's brand of smallball is great, and it's what defines the team.

However, D'Antoni should be *slightly* more regulatory in terms of it's usage. He needs to unleash our speed from a position of power, and recognize that playing Skinner and Amare in the same lineup would allow us stem the tide when we're getting pounded inside mercilessly and consistantly.

I don't think I've watched a single game that has featured our two bigs on the floor at the same time. Although the guys at 82games (http://www.82games.com/0708/0708PHO2.HTM) ensure us that it has happened this year. For 43 minutes! Hmm, and it's been a pretty good 43 minutes. 115 points for and 82 points against. I know, I know... nothing close to hard evidence that such a lineup would work for an extended period due to the ridiculously small sample size. However, it does prompt further exploration...

[misteradiant]

Ah, the thinly veiled jab. I'm snapping in applause.

no jab intended my friend. i just went through my collection of poems and grabbed one that wasn't about the bush administration.

for those who don't know, any time i find a post by anyone that consists of "with that said" or facsimile thereof, i lay down a poem. simple.

[fixxxer]

So a team can force a player to play on the rookie scale in his 3rd and 4th year? So no players will ever get a big payday now until their 5th year unless the team chooses to release them frmo the team option earlier? Which most teams woudln't do with a good rookie?Yup, and this has been the case since the 1999 Collective Bargaining Agreement. Even worse is the fact that the rookie is a restricted free agent after the 4th year. Which essentially means if the team wants to, (i.e. if the extension negotiations reach an impasse after the 4th year) it can hold said rookie for a minimum of 5 full years at the rookie salary scale.

[Squeege63]

So a team can force a player to play on the rookie scale in his 3rd and 4th year? So no players will ever get a big payday now until their 5th year unless the team chooses to release them frmo the team option earlier? Which most teams woudln't do with a good rookie?

pretty much, but in most cases, the stars are extended after their 3rd year, so they have the guaranteed money in the future.

Personally, i like the system because there are so many busts that come out of the draft that could kill a cap if they are allowed to sign huge deals on potential out the gate. I think the NFL should adopt a similar policy, but maybe make it 2 years (since the shelf life of NFL players is so much shorter) that way you won't be having these contract hold outs because there is a guaranteed amount of money a player can get based on where they are drafted. No more Jamarcus Russells or Brady Quinns

[Shabazz]

So a team can force a player to play on the rookie scale in his 3rd and 4th year? So no players will ever get a big payday now until their 5th year unless the team chooses to release them frmo the team option earlier? Which most teams woudln't do with a good rookie?

Yep.

They changed it in the most recent CBA. It's definitely in teams' favor now. If a team likes its rookie what most will do is pick up the 4th year option and negotiate an extension after the 3rd year that takes effect in the 5th year.

Here it is cut and pasted from the CBA (courtesy of inside hoops):

C. Rookie Scale Contracts


Rookie scale contracts will provide for two guaranteed seasons with two separate one-year options in favor of the team for seasons 3 and 4. (In the previous agreement, rookie scale contracts provided for three (3) guaranteed seasons with a team option for year four.) The first team option is exercisable following the end of the player’s first season, and the second team option is exercisable following the end of the player’s second season. A team that exercises both options will continue to have first refusal rights following the player’s fourth season.
The rookie scale and 3rd and 4th-year options and 5th-year Qualifying Offer amounts for 2005 first round draft picks (at 100% of their scale amounts) are set forth in Exhibit A attached to this memorandum. Teams will still have the ability to pay 20% more or less than the scale amounts.


Letting players out of their contract in hopes that they negotiate a long term deal is dangerous as the Cavs can attest with the Boozer situation.

[RDM2]

I have a much cheaper, simpler answer to this whole situation...

Buy Skinner some platform shoes and put him at the 5!

[Shabazz]

Speaking of rookie contracts, one of the more bizarre moves this summer was Golden State not picking up the 3rd year option on Patrick O'Bryant after he was the 9th pick in the '06 draft, making him an unrestricted FA after the season.

I think he's definitely worth a look this summer.

[/tangent]

[ShelC]

Pass on O'bryant. Another big guy looking to make a living off his size by playing basketball. Hes a plodder anyways....

In other news:

The Memphis Grizzlies announced today that they have requested waivers on guard Tarence Kinsey.

Kinsey, a 6-6, 189-pound guard, was averaging 3.6 points and 1.1 rebounds in 8.7 minutes in 11 appearances this season. An undrafted free agent out of South Carolina, he averaged 7.7 points and 2.0 rebounds in his rookie season with the Grizzlies in 2006-07. Kinsey came on strong late in the season when he was named the NBA’s Western Conference Rookie of the Month after averaging 18.8 points, 5.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists and 2.63 steals last April.

Hes intrigued me because he was really tearing it up late last year. He literally came out of nowhere and was scoring like crazy for the Grizz. Maybe he hd benefitted from being an unknown and once teams scouted him he had a tougher time? Still, he may be worth a look as a rangy, athletic, 2/3 scorer off the bench. Not sure why he fell out of favor with Iavoroni but whenver he got some kind of time he scored the ball well. We've got young guys like DJ and Tucker, but Kinsey is much more of a shooter, especially from midrange and has incredible athleticsm. Think Rip Hamilton with hops.

[Shabazz]

I thought he was a bit of a stiff too. But he actually looked pretty good in the summer league/preseason. Much quicker and more aggressive than his rookie season.

Either way, I can definitely see a lot of discussion about him on this board this coming summer during the annual "which stiffs, plodders and washed up, 3rd string centers can we get for the minimum?" threads.

[ShelC]

Either way, I can definitely see a lot of discussion about him on this board this coming summer during the annual "which stiffs, plodders and washed up, 3rd string centers can we get for the minimum?" threads.

This is true. To his credit, i remember reading that he did work to get into better shape but hes still a big boy. I think the fact that GS cant/wont use him in their system should be a sign to us especially that he probably wouldnt fit in with our type of game and system.

[misteradiant]

omg! we have to trade somebody now! we don't have the rest of the league bowing before us crying out for mercy! we have to actually fight for something! no way! yes way! trade amare! trade barbosa! do something! i'm an idiot who wants the suns to do something because i can't see how steve and raja and grant and shawn and amare and boris and leandro and skinner add up to a trip to the finals! they just aren't good enough! replace our best low post threat with a player with a sketchy injury history! trade the 6th man of the year because he's going through a rough shooting stretch!

and so forth...

[MTSunsFan]

With that being said, MR, who should we trade??? :wink:

[k_kwan]

With that being said, MR, who should we trade??? :wink:

Heres some food for thought how bout we trade no one? I know it's a revolutionary idea but hey someone needed to say it.

Gawd sometimes its hard to hang around this board sometimes...................stop with the trade scenarios its waaay to early in the season to be broaching this topic. If it was close to the all-star break or after and we're still playing like this then ok maybe it would warranted but you know what its not.

[misteradiant]

With that being said, MR, who should we trade??? :wink:

oh you are such a smartass...

mishmash notwithstand
upon your persona glare
with miss understanding typing at your side
and a pocket of wish i had tobacco for my meerschaum pipe
you've got wishfuls and fantasy
don't say that word
it's touch control!
the cabbalistic tarot of my soul

i had to replace the c with a k from somewhere
mister highway interchange
where hitchhiking swearprayer sweatwhere pray there
and god will come
i have seen it happen
all you have do is believe in yourself
god loves that
i promise

and miss understanding stands for the clapping thing
she wishes for hotrod blarney blast vroom zoom
in the vast expansion of everything blowing by
hey baby
wanna get me high?

trip downstairs for the can of liquid coke
because they took all the fun out of it
spurious intellect
got a black zippo lighter of fun for you
bond love computer game gambling dream

i always have to say it

and swelling thoughts and quotes and candles lit
your composition book of changes
in an age where paper is less than the vision you had for yourself
at another typewriter
for now its transmitted electronically
losing some feeling i swear mister jones name is mud
with a big wheel and a friend running children having fun

this is the desk of a blessed man
and your random conglomerates can't keep out one thousand nudes
and six skulls staring at you

she clicks and clicks she nervous tics my hyena godzilla krakatoa jam
romeo y julieta cigar box stands for what it stands for empty glass
i sip and sip
drip drip drip
i really enjoyed it
it's gone now

;)

[MTSunsFan]

Bravo, MR. Bravo!

[OE]

You heard it, folks. No trade scenarios. No complaining about the team. If your post contains anything more than GO SUNS! and perhaps something anecdotal for the purpose of entertainment, you will not be tolerated.

That said (:wink:), Amare's a 4. He's not a 5. He's an offensive player, not a defensive player. You don't trade Barkley because he's not Parish, you put Mark West or Joe Klein next to him if you have to. Then again, if Barkley's knees were a concern...

I think people are making up trade scenarios because we have a lot of talent that doesn't seem to mesh. Like most here, I don't think it's the type of problem that can work itself out. We'll see.

[misteradiant]

Heres some food for thought how bout we trade no one? I know it's a revolutionary idea but hey someone needed to say it.

Gawd sometimes its hard to hang around this board sometimes...................stop with the trade scenarios its waaay to early in the season to be broaching this topic. If it was close to the all-star break or after and we're still playing like this then ok maybe it would warranted but you know what its not.

you know k, in the past i have mostly thought you're a dumbass, but this post is spot on. guess you're all right after all.

it is a battle between the darkness and the light. between the suns in orange and the spurs in black. between those that believe in the team we have and others who would break it up. the dark and light seem to coexist even as we live in a hemisphere where we receive more light than darkness even in winter. hubris? definitely.

on a side note: jesus loved mary. the whole of christianity is based upon the resurrection of christ. without that, he's just another prophet like jeremiah or isaiah. mary was the first to see the resurrected savior. the testimony of a woman is the foundation of a religion that is today fractured at best, and genocidally murderous at worst. anyway, i'd like to trust hilary, but i don't. i'd vote for oprah first. look into the platform of mike gravel, people. him and dennis kucinich.

oh yeah, basketball.... i can't keep saying this, but it's way lame to pine for trades that should have happened or could happen. as we all call in our favor, statistics show that trade scenarios are doomed to failure, making them the shit on the boot of a gay alexandrian warrior. that is much funnier than most of you will ever comprehend. anyway, trade scenarios: bad. propositions for utilizing what we have: good.

[misteradiant]

That said (:wink:)

oh man i can't believe you did that! :mrgreen:

beer bubble blowjobs for fun and respect:

people make love and fuck
the greatest thing or an insult
they pray and lust over things and god
they possess little of the impossible
we become something like a dream when we die
i imagine
but can never know

when i am dead
i hope to have a new cadillac
and a plasma tv
with wings

do you think heaven is a place of dimension
is it a place in our minds
is heaven eternal or another joint to drink and smoke and fuck in
do you wonder if god is a sentient being more advanced like an alien
or a force of cosmic karma
like truth and wisdom
and beer

i wonder about these things
fishing exponentially with hook and sinker
we are in a vast sea
starving for water to drink
why should that ever end?

[misteradiant]

nothing to see here. move along.

[misteradiant]

Amare's a 4. He's not a 5. He's an offensive player, not a defensive player. You don't trade Barkley because he's not Parish, you put Mark West or Joe Klein next to him if you have to.

it is the way of the light to see that.


I think people are making up trade scenarios because we have a lot of talent that doesn't seem to mesh. Like most here, I don't think it's the type of problem that can work itself out.

it is the way of the darkness to think that.

everything can be worked out. we are all made of the same stuff. everything is connected and is one, no matter the distance we perceive. there was a time when nothing we know existed. at the moment something did, we were born. here, in the same dimension, on the same globe breathing the same air, we are fans of a team of men who can connect and acheive nifty things. we are all from the same thing. we fit together simply because we are here playing, typing, watching, dreaming. nothing is perfect, and that is what god came down to find when he became christ to ask us in person why we wouldn't do as we were told. but that does not mean we fear the connection between god and man. we are simply a basketball team and fans. are we connected? do you see and think that? if you don't, it is my studied opinion that you are mistaken and living in a fantasy. and i should know about fantasy. you're agreeing.

see? we're the same. so are the suns. they will work it out.

[Shabazz]

It's been a weird season to say the least. The funny thing is that the mood of this board seems to be the same as the mood of the team. We're in a position (same as Dallas and maybe even SA for that matter) that we could go 82-0 and beat every team by 20, and as happy as we all would be, we all know it means jack in April. That tiny little "so what" in the back of our minds that comes after every win has completely devalued the regular season to the point where it's harder to enjoy.

It seems Mike D anticipated this amongst the team prior to the season when he came out with his "I need to relax more," "I need to rest the starters/play the subs more," "we need to enjoy the season more" proclamations. Problem is, he like the rest of us on the board, got impatient when he wasn't seeing May ball in November and reverted to his "I'm stressed," and "F the subs," ways.

My humble recommendation: let's take a page from the Spurs last year. They were chugging along, underperforming and the media was coming out with daily stories about how they were done, way too unathletic and needed to make a move if they wanted to win. Popovich basically gave them a big "F you," and stood by his team. And then they did what was important - got hot in March when it's important to get hot and won the title.

We have a top 3 team in the league, record-wise and talent wise and we're in a position to win the title. Something is off, but I think it's the kind of thing that can be corrected with tweaks, like expanding the rotation by one or making a minor trade/signing not by trading our best low post scorer, when he's clearly not 100% and completely changing our dynamic mid-season.

[misteradiant]

Something is off, but I think it's the kind of thing that can be corrected with tweaks, like expanding the rotation by one or making a minor trade/signing not by trading our best low post scorer, when he's clearly not 100% and completely changing our dynamic mid-season.

until the selected portion above, i'd have ranked your post a 9 of 10. then you suggested a trade. you seem to think we have enough to win the championship, but you don't? which is it?

[k_kwan]

you know k, in the past i have mostly thought you're a dumbass, but this post is spot on. guess you're all right after all.

it is a battle between the darkness and the light. between the suns in orange and the spurs in black. between those that believe in the team we have and others who would break it up. the dark and light seem to coexist even as we live in a hemisphere where we receive more light than darkness even in winter. hubris? definitely.

on a side note: jesus loved mary. the whole of christianity is based upon the resurrection of christ. without that, he's just another prophet like jeremiah or isaiah. mary was the first to see the resurrected savior. the testimony of a woman is the foundation of a religion that is today fractured at best, and genocidally murderous at worst. anyway, i'd like to trust hilary, but i don't. i'd vote for oprah first. look into the platform of mike gravel, people. him and dennis kucinich.

oh yeah, basketball.... i can't keep saying this, but it's way lame to pine for trades that should have happened or could happen. as we all call in our favor, statistics show that trade scenarios are doomed to failure, making them the shit on the boot of a gay alexandrian warrior. that is much funnier than most of you will ever comprehend. anyway, trade scenarios: bad. propositions for utilizing what we have: good.

You know MR I've actually never given a damn what you thought so I guess its all good then huh?

But thanks for the back handed compliment .....I guess.

[misteradiant]

had to wipe tears of CHOOSE ONE:

1) hysterical joy
2) misunderstood sadness

enter answer here.

yes, kwan. it's all good. no backhand intended. i was using the front of my hand. typing demands it, you know.

;)

[Miamisun]

Complaining after beating the Spurs? I hate to say this but I am close to giving this board a rest.

[Phoenix219]

It could be worse. We cuold be Knicks fans.

I just read this in the comments on the newest Isiah article.

It made me laugh and go WTF?!?! at the same time.



I have confidence that Isiah can get this ship righted. Key free agent acquisition, Jerome James, should be back shortly and that will give the Knicks a rebounding and defensive presence in the middle. Isiah may be able to get Artest from the Kings for Lee and Balkman. I would not be at all surprised if Thomas is able to lure Chris Webber out of retirement with a sizable multi-year contract offer.

[Shabazz]

until the selected portion above, i'd have ranked your post a 9 of 10. then you suggested a trade. you seem to think we have enough to win the championship, but you don't? which is it?

I do.

By a trade I meant something along the lines of a future 2nd rounder for player X. And I really meant it more as a counter to all the trade Amare/Barbosa/Matrix talk.

I like our team. I was happy with the win yesterday and I think we can win a title with the team as is. If any changes need to be made, I think they should be minor, but we have 4 more months to figure it out and I think we should use the rest of the regular season, or at least until feb. to do just that.

I may not understand most of what you write MR, but we're on the same page.

Can I have my 9 back now?

[Phoenix219]

The scary part is that there are no signs that that poster was being sarcastic.

[sehan]

I dont disagree with you, but thats the route we've taken with this team and Amare. We want to go smaller and faster and that means Amare at the 5 so the responsibility falls on him now. Its not his fault thats hes been put in that position, but thats where we stand right now as a team.

Agree with you there, but I think Amare is someone you build your team around and not try and fit a square into a circle. Good coaches tend to put their players in positions to succeed. Our coach is willing to bend over backwards and do that for some players. Just not players named Banks or Amare.

[SunsJunkee]

Agree with you there, but I think Amare is someone you build your team around and not try and fit a square into a circle. Good coaches tend to put their players in positions to succeed. Our coach is willing to bend over backwards and do that for some players. Just not players named Banks or Amare.

I think some people are being unfair with Amare's defense last night. True he was atrocious in the first half one on one, he was still doing a respectable job clogging the middle blocking and altering shots on help defense. I thought he got much better defensively as the game went on, he forced Duncan into a couple of travels, blocked his shot, and poked the ball away from him a couple of times. It's almost like when he saw that he escaped the first half without foul trouble he did a much better job denying position and being more physical. All that being said I think many here are missing the point of the win, we don't need Amare or anyone else to stop Duncan. LET Duncan score all he wants if it means, that Barry, Bowen, Manu, Finley etc aren't getting enough good looks to get in rythum. Exhibit A Duncan goes bananas and nobody on the Spurs gets untracked from the outside. We have had success with this approach in the past but haven't stayed disciplined for 48 minutes to limit our double teams. Our lapses have cost us see game 5 last year when we came out double teaming in the second half, after Duncan had a big scoring half against KT. Next thing you know Bowen, Gibobli and co. catch fire from 3 point range.

I am very encouraged by what I saw from Hill as a new weapon against the Spurs, not only his midrange game but his defense. He's another guy we can put on Manu and even Parker for a few minutes at a time.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

indeed!!!!111


True..If Amare is traded..I will still be a Suns fan, but I will root for Amare when he plays against us..I want Amare to retire a Sun, but he can't reach his full potential with Coach Nash handling all of the Offense..Amare needs to be the focal point of the offense and he should play PF in a traditional line-up

[Nodack]

Nice post SJ.

I think a lot of people are talking about Amare's offense of lack of it last night instead of his defense. I think some are concerned with the lack of touches Amare has been receiving in the paint. I'm not sure what to make of it so much and want to blame some of it on the way San Antonio was playing. We were playing to let TD get his and nobody else. I wonder if SA was playing to NOT let Amare get his. They were guarding the pick and roll very well not giving Nash an avenue to pass to Amare from what I saw. I'm officially going with that and saying that the Suns took what SA gave us and vice versa and the Suns won even if Amare had to take one for the team so to speak.

As much as we ponder what goes on behind the scenes I have to think that the Suns communicate with each other Amare probably knew going in that he was going to have to play TD straight up and that at some point knew they he wasn't going to score a lot because of the defense and was probably OK with the whole thing especially since the Suns won. He seemed fine at the post game interview.

I'm going out on a limb and I'm calling the game in San Antonio a success.

[SunsJunkee]

If I can use a football analogy the Suns remind me of an NFL team that instead of using the run to setup the pass constantly tries to force the pass because they have an extremely talented QB (Nash) and recievers (shooters, LB, Hill, Bell). And while they may be very succesful with it based on their talent alone, they will never be as potent as they would be if they put pressure on the other team first their with the running game. Here they have one of the best runningbacks in the game (Amare) underutilized, with limited touches due to coaching, system, chemistry issues with other players. Whatever you want to attribute it to, if he only got more carries he would he dramatically increase the efficiency of the offense, open up passing lanes etc. He balances our offense to make our passing (perimeter) game that much harder to stop. As it is I think our team is relying entirely too much on the perimeter to win it all with our current philosophy. You hear Thunder Dan harping about it all the time about this team settling for outside shots. Where would we be without Grant Hill? He is about the only guy willing to put his head down and take it strong to the rack.

[Shabazz]

All that being said I think many here are missing the point of the win, we don't need Amare or anyone else to stop Duncan. LET Duncan score all he wants if it means, that Barry, Bowen, Manu, Finley etc aren't getting enough good looks to get in rythum. Exhibit A Duncan goes bananas and nobody on the Spurs gets untracked from the outside. We have had success with this approach in the past but haven't stayed disciplined for 48 minutes to limit our double teams. Our lapses have cost us see game 5 last year when we came out double teaming in the second half, after Duncan had a big scoring half against KT. Next thing you know Bowen, Gibobli and co. catch fire from 3 point range.


Agreed that it was the way to go last night, but I'm not sure it's the best plan of action when Parker is playing. Forcing Manu and 3 other scrubby Spurs to beat us is one thing, but if we make Manu AND Parker beat us, there's a good chance they will.


I think a lot of people are talking about Amare's offense of lack of it last night instead of his defense. I think some are concerned with the lack of touches Amare has been receiving in the paint. I'm not sure what to make of it so much and want to blame some of it on the way San Antonio was playing. We were playing to let TD get his and nobody else. I wonder if SA was playing to NOT let Amare get his. They were guarding the pick and roll very well not giving Nash an avenue to pass to Amare from what I saw. I'm officially going with that and saying that the Suns took what SA gave us and vice versa and the Suns won even if Amare had to take one for the team so to speak.

Exactly. Amare got swarmed every time he touched it. He did a good job of letting his offense come to him.

I actually think he's been doing that all season. He seems to be a lot more willing to pass out to the wing to shooters when he's on the high post and to give up the ball in that top-of-the-key weave that they run. His improved attitude is also reflected in his comments when he says things like "we're a great team, one night Leandro beats you, one night Shawn beats you and one night I beat you." We should give him credit for having more of a team-first approach this year.

[AlanS]

Tucker returns

The Suns swapped their rookies, sending guard D.J. Strawberry to Albuquerque and bringing forward Alando Tucker back from his NBA Development League assignment.


Tucker returns following a great run in the D-league:


D-League Performer of the Week, December 17, 2007
Alando Tucker, Albuquerque Thunderbirds

Alando Tucker of the Albuquerque Thunderbirds is the fourth D-League Performer of the Week for the 2007-08 season.

Tucker, a rookie on assignment from the Phoenix Suns, scored 40 points with eight rebounds on Friday night in a win over the Bakersfield Jam. His 40 point effort is tied for the most points scored in a D-League game this season. Tucker returned on Saturday to scored 32 points and add five rebounds in a win over Anaheim. For the week, Tucker averaged 36.0 points and 6.5 rebounds while leading the Thunderbirds to two victories. He shot .519 (27-52) from the field, including 6-10 from three-point range.

Tucker, a 6-6 forward from Wisconsin, was the 29th overall pick by the Suns in the first round of the 2007 NBA Draft. He is averaging 28.2 points, tied for second in the D-League, and 7.0 rebounds in five games since being assigned to Albuquerque on November 29. Wisconsin's all-time leading scorer, a first-team All-American and the 2006-07 Big Ten Player of the Year, Tucker averaged 6.0 points in two games with the Suns before he was assigned.

Hopefully, DJ can get a good run during his time in the D-League.

Meanwhile, it would be nice for the Suns to get some blowout wins so Tucker can get a chance for NBA action. Given the way the Suns are struggling right now, D'Antoni is not going to give Alando any meaningful minutes.

http://www.nba.com/media/dleague/a_tucker_300_071217.jpg

[Nodack]

I can't argue with that analogy except to say do we really know the reason why he is being under utilized? We speculate chemistry, health, coaching, but we don't really know what is up. We threw the ball to him a lot in the post at the start of the season and he was picking up a lot of offensive fouls. Now Amare seems to shy away from posting up so much and relies on the pick and roll or the outside jumper almost exclusively. I just don't know if it's as simple as throwing the ball to him more. I really don't know the answer, but I doubt Nash or anybody else would deny anybody the ball if they were in a position to score out of spite.

[Wormwood]

kurt had a nice midrange jumper but grant's midrange game is so much more expansive and explosive than kurt's wide open 15 footers. it is hard to believe you think they cancel each other out, worm.

your fixation on a player we traded this summer is mildly disturbing. he isn't here. probably best to get over it.

My point was that the article seemed a little schizophrenic. First it lauded the team for dumping KT because he didn't fit, then it said we did a good thing by getting a guy with a great mid-range game. Which seems funny, because if the key to beating the Spurs is the mid-range shot, and KT had a good to very good mid range game (not excellent like Hill), how could it be such a good move?

[JackArse]

If I can use a football analogy the Suns remind me of an NFL team that instead of using the run to setup the pass constantly tries to force the pass because they have an extremely talented QB

ya know.. it's not the first time i've heard the suns compared to the patriots. =)

[Doctor_G]

I think we ought to trade Nash. It's a no brainer folks...since he plays NO defense. This board is really getting out of control lately. Reality check? ANYONE??? Trade Amare, Trade Marion, Trade Barbs... Gimme a f**king break.

It's no wonder I don't post a whole lot here anymore. This place used to be a great place to talk Suns basketball. WTF happenned? Nowa days I find myself just reading the pasted news articles. Too much utter BS to weed through in here to do much else. What a shame, 'cause I used to look forward to coming in here. I'm certainly not alone, a lot of long time posters have done the same.

Food for thought...

If a topic becomes ludicrous and ridiculous (a topic which defies COMMON SENSE and LOGIC)...how about not fueling the insanity? Instead we have half the board talking about trading our only low post presence. Have I enetered the Twilight Zone???

[darrkin]

i say we trade amare for another guard, think how fast we will be. someone make a thread about dallas, this is getting old. no way in hell will we trade amare, he is our only young good big...we are already the smallest team in the league.....dughh..maybe after we whoop dallas whos window is closing faster than ours, some of this talk will dissapate

[INFORMER]

"We need to win that way," D'Antoni said. "That's going to be the key. We've got to be tougher and grittier and defend a little bit better, and I thought we did."

WORD. That's why I loved the Utah win.


IF we trade Amare

It better be to Chicago.


Right now, I think Horford would be a smart move in a dumb situation -- one of the few.

No way the Hawks make that trade.

[1tinsoldier]

I believe this game demonstrated two things. That Hill adds a much needed new dimension to our offense against the Spurs. But we are still Duncan's bitch on the defensive end. We need a solution that holds Duncan closer to his season averages, and Amare is not the guy for that job.

[Nodack]

I hear you doctor. This is the first time I have posted anything basketball in weeks here because of the insanity. It's a free country and a free board and as another poster mentioned that we should learn to ignore the trade talk and the negative talk if we want to be able to post here and not get too pissed off.

Some people will just say screw it and go away and that is too bad.

I'll try to stick around and stay positive even if I might avoid the place like the plague after certain losses knowing that phxsuns.net will go into full blown trade everybody mode when that happens and I don't feel like reading a bunch of trade crap especially after a loss.

[Doctor_G]

I believe this game demonstrated two things. That Hill adds a much needed new dimension to our offense against the Spurs. But we are still Duncan's bitch on the defensive end. We need a solution that holds Duncan closer to his season averages, and Amare is not the guy for that job.

Is the glass half empty, or is it half full? Did you even watch our team last year play the Spurs? All Amare had to do last yr was look at Duncan...and he was getting called for a foul. Ya think maybe, just maybe Amare was just a bit curious as to how those refs would call the game? I'd like to think Amare was feeling out the refs in the first half (trying his damndest to stay out of foul trouble). If this was last yr, Amare would have picked up 4 or 5 fouls in the third period alone...guarding Duncan. As the game went on (in the 3rd), Amare got more physical, knocked the ball away from Duncan on a cpl of plays, and had a few swats, and I'll be damned..he didn't get whistled every friggin single time like he would have last yr.

In my book, that's progress.

[JediSkywalker]

We NEED a low post scoring threat to win a title. Amare is one of the best. Without him we are live by the jumper, die by the jumper and our jumper isn't what it used to be.

Everyone knows Amare's defense hasn't been the best, but his knees aren't 100%. They will get better as the season goes along and so will his defense.

As bad as last night's matchup looked, it was by design. Amare single-covered Duncan most of the night and got the occasional double to help him out as the Suns forced the other players to beat them. By contrast every time Amare touched the ball he was swarmed. I don't know many players in the NBA who can guard TD one on one all game while also providing something on the other end.

I.

Amare's knees may never be 100%. That is the big risk, for the Suns and whatever team he gets traded to (if that happens). I don't believe his defense (or lack of) is the result of knee problems. He has never been a strong defensive player.

Amare picked up 5 fouls and Duncan got 37 points+17 rebounds last night. That is not effective defense. I would rather see Amare be a strong offensive player, while being an average defensive player, and we should have a 7-footer close to the basket, rebounding and blocking shots.

Last summer I felt the Suns absolutely must not trade Amare. After watching him this season, I think it may not be such a bad idea, if we can get the right player. Too bad we gave up two draft picks to Seattle. Could have come in handy to get a strong defensive player.

[SwingMan]

I hear you doctor. This is the first time I have posted anything basketball in weeks here because of the insanity. It's a free country and a free board and as another poster mentioned that we should learn to ignore the trade talk and the negative talk if we want to be able to post here and not get too pissed off.

Some people will just say screw it and go away and that is too bad.

I'll try to stick around and stay positive even if I might avoid the place like the plague after certain losses knowing that phxsuns.net will go into full blown trade everybody mode when that happens and I don't feel like reading a bunch of trade crap especially after a loss.

I'd suggest doing what I do Nodack: Stick to the news. ;)

Hey, at least it deals with actual facts.....

[Nodack]

Yeah, but sometime I make the mistake of reading a few posts that really stick in my craw and can't help myself. Other times I just say to myself "just walk away... just walk away", it's better that way.

[Doctor_G]

Just keep those news articles coming swingman. It's about all that keeps me checking in these days. Keep up the good work.

[ShelC]

"We need to win that way," D'Antoni said. "That's going to be the key. We've got to be tougher and grittier and defend a little bit better, and I thought we did."

Is MikeD starting to bend a bit on upholding his style? We know you have to be able to win the ugly ones in the playoffs. I think we've actually shown the ability to win the close, ugly, defensive games (not only against the Spurs, but against the Mavs and Jazz), but havent seemed willing to agree to playing that style. We'd win begrudgingly almost, with MikeD muttering, "We just need to run harder and play faster" afterwards. Now we need to get tougher, grittier and be ready to slug it out, huh? Sounds good to me.


By the way...Has anyone posted the Vescey article from Tuesday? If not, i'll post it.

[SwingMan]

Haven't seen a Vescey article here for months, Shel - is it Suns related?

[ShelC]

Sure is...If its one thing about Vescey, he's a pretty consistent Suns supporter Ive noticed. I think he really respect JC and the franchise and definitely doesnt mind goin after Stern.



Broken Justice
by Peter Vescey

December 18, 2007 -- THE NBA's brand of jus tice continues to bewilder and disfigure.

The Suns' chances of beating the Spurs in the playoffs were vastly diminished last May when commissioner David Stern followed the letter of league law and suspended Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw for Game 5 in Phoenix for taking one or two harmless steps onto the court after Robert Horry flagrantly hip-checked scurrying Steve Nash into the scorer's table.

Meanwhile, the NBA only saw fit to suspend elbow-wielding Kenyon Martin one lousy game as a result of fracturing the left eye socket of Hornets' forward Melvin Ely, who may be forced to miss the next two months.

How reasonable is that?

It's a near replay of the Danny Fortson-Zarko Cabarkapa 2003-04 disaster, one of many, many examples throughout the years. The Suns' on-the-run rookie was upended in mid-flight, on approach to the rim, by the vacant lot of a thug. Bad enough the 6-11 Serbian broke his wrist, but he never again showed the promise, confidence or aggressiveness he did before being submarined and is no longer in the league after an uninspiring 1½ seasons at Golden State.

What makes Martin's mugging a bit less loathsome than Fortson's dirty deed is that it was delivered instantaneously, whereas Danny Pigtails had time to measure his victim for a cast, if not a casket. Martin says it was an accident and quickly apologized. Ely accepted his apology and branded it an accident as well.

Oh, really? At the same time, "There's no such thing as an errant elbow (or an wayward hip check, for that matter)," Pat Riley once accentuated. I often use that quote because it couldn't be nearer to the truth.

Anyone who ever seriously played the game and had someone repeatedly come over his back underneath the boards, or habitually climbed backs, will vouch for that. Many of us have the shattered front teeth, smashed noses and/or bloody elbows as proof.

On the playground and at the "Y" these "accidents" are settled and policed in house. Vigilantism is the last form of justice Stern wants. This is why he should've fixed this farce long ago; though now is as good a time as any to start dispensing common sense vs. disproportionate sentences to sustained injuries.

Perpetrators need to be placed in suspended contamination until damaged players are 100 percent physically ready to play.

No, you're correct; such appropriate action by Stern may not end dirty play. But it'll certainly make a gladiator or a sneak think twice before maiming an opponent. No matter how far beyond the fringe a scrub may be, I submit, he's not about to risk a half-season's pay to take out a superstar for the good of the team.....


http://www.nypost.com/seven/12182007/sports/broken_justice_55694.htm?page=1

[Phoenix219]

Amare's knees may never be 100%. That is the big risk, for the Suns and whatever team he gets traded to (if that happens). I don't believe his defense (or lack of) is the result of knee problems. He has never been a strong defensive player.

Amare picked up 5 fouls and Duncan got 37 points+17 rebounds last night. That is not effective defense. I would rather see Amare be a strong offensive player, while being an average defensive player, and we should have a 7-footer close to the basket, rebounding and blocking shots.

Last summer I felt the Suns absolutely must not trade Amare. After watching him this season, I think it may not be such a bad idea, if we can get the right player. Too bad we gave up two draft picks to Seattle. Could have come in handy to get a strong defensive player.

It would have been nice to have the picks AND KT if we were seriously going to move Amare. We only used him correctly for what, half of '05? :P

[Phoenix219]

Nice article I haven't seen posted yet.




After years of injuries, Hill enjoying rebirth with Suns

By Rob Schumacher, The Arizona Republic

Despite his injury history, Grant Hill is second on the Suns this season in minutes played at 34.9 per game. He's also developed a three-point shot.

Grant Hill, a seven-time All-Star who signed as a free agent with Phoenix on July 11, has adapted to the Suns' fast style of play. The 6-8 forward is averaging 15.9 points, 4.7 rebounds and 3.6 assists in 25 games. A look at his season:

Now: Started the first 25 games of the season for the first time since 1999-2000, when he started 39 in a row.

Recently: Scored 15 or more points in 15 of the last 18 games; he never hit 15 in the first seven:

First seven games Category Last 18 games

11.7 Points a game 17.6

36.4% FG% 54.1%

20.8% Three-point FG% 45.7%

4.0 FG made a game 7.0


Historically: One of three active players to average at least 30.0 points, 5.0 rebounds and 5.0 assists in his career (LeBron James, Cleveland; Dwyane Wade, Miami).

Grant Hill says his new environment — at home in Paradise Valley with his growing family and at work with his Phoenix Suns teammates — is "heaven."
He should know. The seven-time All-Star spent most of the decade in the other place, sidelined with various injuries for 292 of a possible 492 games since 2000.

But a return to health, a change of scenery and a team that fits his talents have rejuvenated the 35-year-old swingman and reinvigorated the Suns' 40-year quest for an NBA championship.

Heading into tonight's game at the Dallas Mavericks, and before Tuesday's action, the Suns owned the third-best record in the league (18-7) after a 100-95 win at the San Antonio Spurs on Monday. The Suns are on course to flirt with another 60-win season. They again lead the league in scoring (109.2 points a game), field goal shooting (49.1%) and assists (27.7 a game).

"He's on the perfect team," TNT basketball analyst Doug Collins says of Hill.

Hill and the Suns share so much in common — an all-consuming desire to win born largely out of years of heartbreak.

Hill questioned his future rehabilitating the left ankle he broke at the end of the 1999-2000 season with the Detroit Pistons as he endured seven injury-plagued years with the Orlando Magic.

Across the country, a succession of bad breaks for the Suns — injuries to Joe Johnson three years ago and Raja Bell two years ago and the suspensions of Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw for leaving the bench last spring against the Spurs — undermined their title hopes.

Maybe that's what attracted one to the other.

"No one in basketball has been through what he's been through," says Alvin Gentry, who coached Hill in Detroit and is reunited with him as an assistant in Phoenix. "The attitude he brought here was, 'Let's sweep all that under the rug. We all have a new beginning, so let's focus on this year and forget what happened in the past.' "

For Hill and these Suns, it's all about June.

"No matter who's in the game, they're going 100 miles an hour at both ends of the floor," Washington Wizards forward Antawn Jamison says.

There is no looking back. No whining about what might have been if Commissioner David Stern had not lowered the boom and suspended Stoudemire and Diaw after Spurs reserve Robert Horry body-slammed Steve Nash into the scorer's table in the final seconds of a Suns series-tying victory. Without Stoudemire and Diaw, the Suns lost Game 5, then were eliminated in Game 6.

"Grant," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni says, "brings a freshness, a new look. I can refer to him. He's been a seven-time All-Star, had everything. But he comes to play without a big contract (two-year, $3.8 million deal) because he wants to win."

Looking for an edge

The season got off to a rocky start.

Four-time All-Star Shawn Marion, upset with a perceived lack of respect, demanded a trade. Stoudemire, the All-NBA center who missed all but three games of the 2005-06 season after surgeries on both knees, had arthroscopic surgery on his right knee the day training camp opened and was slow out of the gate.

Playmaker Diaw has been in a season-long funk that contributed to back-to-back losses to the worst teams in the West (Minnesota) and East (Miami) last week, sending this basketball-crazed town into a panic. The Arizona Republic wrote the team has "failed to enjoy the ride as they set out to do. They show no joy on the floor, criticize their wins, bicker and show jealousy."

Nash was quick to criticize another lethargic loss Saturday at the New Orleans Hornets during a 1-3 stretch: "Nothing surprises me anymore. We're so consistently inconsistent that I'm not surprised. It's very, very disappointing."

Collins, who lives in Phoenix, chimes in: "I don't see the edge they're going to need. There's a real comfort level on this team. Come playoff time, they'll need an edge, a chip on their shoulder."

They had it during an Eastern swing in early December when the Suns shot 77.3% in the second quarter against the Wizards and finished with 42 assists on 50 field goals and scored 136 points against the Toronto Raptors.

Hill has been a major part of it all. In the first two months of his 14th NBA season, he has emerged as the biggest addition to a core group of Suns whose fun-and-run style has made Phoenix a title contender.

The Big Three are at it again. Two-time MVP Nash is dishing assists at a career-best rate (12.0 a game). Marion has folded back into the team concept and is the leader of an underrated defense while averaging a double-double (16.2 points, 10.7 rebounds). Stoudemire, shooting 56.8% and averaging 20.5 points, is burying long-range jumpers and jamming inside like his old self.

Then there's Hill, who is looking, at times, like the player who finished third in MVP voting in 1996-97.

"We're seeing flashes of him," says Collins, who coached Hill in Detroit.

"He's added a big dimension," says Miami Heat coach Pat Riley, who pursued Hill last summer.

During the Suns' 4-1 blitz through the East in December, Hill averaged 6.6 assists and 5.1 rebounds. Overall, he's averaging 15.9 points, 4.7 rebounds and 3.6 assists and shooting 49.7% from the field.

"Obviously," Gentry says, "he's slowed down a little bit, maybe a quarter step. But his jumper is more effective, and he's added the three-pointer to his game."

In his first 13 years, Hill took 259 threes and hit 65 (25.1%). With Phoenix, he has hit 21 of 59 (35.6%).

Defensively, he has provided a spark the Suns didn't expect: He leads them in taking charges.

"I don't remember him being that good a defender," general manager and former player Steve Kerr says.

A week into the season, Hill approached D'Antoni before a game against the Cleveland Cavaliers and asked to defend LeBron James, who is 12 years younger, 25 pounds heavier. "I can make him work," he told D'Antoni.

James scored 27 points but missed 15 of 26 shots in a loss.

Perhaps the most eye-popping contribution of all is minutes played. Hill is second on the Suns at 34.9 a game.

"I feel like I have a lot more left in my body," Hill says. "My desire is still there."

His wife of eight years, Tamia, who gave birth to their second daughter last summer, agrees: "He has his old exuberance back, plus a couple gray hairs."

She laughs. It has been a long time since laughter came so easily and often. No wonder Hill refers to his new home as heaven. "When he's in heaven," his wife says," "we're in bliss."

Fitting in on and off court

Hill has adjusted seamlessly to his new town and team.

Heaven, he says, is "just being in a really good situation, a great organization, a great team, just having a shot after everything that has happened and what I've been through. You have an opportunity to win it all. I appreciate it more so now after everything that has happened the last seven, eight years."

He's appreciated, as well. Off and on the court.

Oprah Winfrey invited Hill and his wife on her show to talk about marriage and parenthood.

"More so than championships and All-Star games, that's your legacy, your children and how they grow up," Hill says. His older daughter Myla is 5. Lael is 4 months.

Nobody on the Suns is happier to have Hill aboard than Nash. Hill is another playmaker on the court, easing the pressure on Nash. "He's been incredible," Nash says. "Great teammate, terrific player, athletic, versatile, experienced, intelligent, unselfish."

These Suns are a work in progress still, but that description fits so many of them. Like Hill, they're ready to win, ready to celebrate.

"I'm sure it's been tough for this team," Hill says. "There has been some heartbreak. We all have that. We just have to keep fighting. I'm hungry as ever. We all have an opportunity now to get it done."

Contributing: The Arizona Republic

[Robot]

It's strange with Amare, because it looks like he is totally complacent in many games -- especially if you watch him let rebounds wiz by him, or get slightly lost on a defensive switch. He seems like he's got something else on his mind, and he just happens to be in a BBALL game. Granted, he obviously scores + dominates at times -- but, I feel like he isn't connected with the game.

This general lethargic tone is something I see across the board this year with the team -- like nobody is that focused. At times, they are so focused, but when they aren't -- they look glassy eyed. I would say Nash and Grant Hill are the exceptions.

-R

[1tinsoldier]

I'd like to think Amare was feeling out the refs in the first half (trying his damndest to stay out of foul trouble). If this was last yr, Amare would have picked up 4 or 5 fouls in the third period alone...guarding Duncan. As the game went on (in the 3rd), Amare got more physical, knocked the ball away from Duncan on a cpl of plays, and had a few swats, and I'll be damned..he didn't get whistled every friggin single time like he would have last yr.

In my book, that's progress.

Bottom line: We can't expect to defend one of the top 3 most experienced and potent players in the league with a player who is and will continue to be "trying his damndest to stay out of foul trouble". with the blessings of the coach because our options are limited.

In my book that's another playoff elimination.

[misteradiant]

I do.

By a trade I meant something along the lines of a future 2nd rounder for player X. And I really meant it more as a counter to all the trade Amare/Barbosa/Matrix talk.

I like our team. I was happy with the win yesterday and I think we can win a title with the team as is. If any changes need to be made, I think they should be minor, but we have 4 more months to figure it out and I think we should use the rest of the regular season, or at least until feb. to do just that.

I may not understand most of what you write MR, but we're on the same page.

Can I have my 9 back now?

i'll give you a 10 because new guys need a little positive affirmation sometimes.

:)

[misteradiant]

All that being said...

people must really love my poetry....

buttmunch gargle juice for god:

uncomfortable and fat
television news of death
music of bitches and colt 45
violence liquor
knock knock
whose there
jesus fucking christ
who did you expect
mohammad?

what a stupid religion
your prophet was a businessman
mine got nailed to a post
yours enslaved women
mine kissed them and held their hands
yours gave a thousand rules
mine said love your neighbor
and love yourself
and now you wanna get all pissy about how we do business
and you hijack suicide airplanes
and you fight a good fight
for the hatred your religion built in your hearts
your prophet was an assh*le
just like george bush
waiting for the cosmic wheel to crush his bones
and you wait
and he is turned to nothing
and you fight the inevitable
and we
caught in between
wish to kill you all
so we can get on with our lives

jesus was a gentle man
and you are hypocrites
and you are a liar
and you think it's virgins in heaven
when it's whores saved from tears
caused by you

what stupid religion
islam and christianity
and hebrew jewish cluster bomb 343
crush that city
for a different definition of the same god

uncomfortable and bowing
with memorized lines
fear and sleeping
death and gnashing and weeping
stupid people praying
existing for nothing but money

god loves me for free.

[Wormwood]

Yay!

Can we get a clapping emoticon, Mee, for Mr.'s beat poet riffs?

[misteradiant]

I actually think he's been doing that all season. He seems to be a lot more willing to pass out to the wing to shooters when he's on the high post and to give up the ball in that top-of-the-key weave that they run. His improved attitude is also reflected in his comments when he says things like "we're a great team, one night Leandro beats you, one night Shawn beats you and one night I beat you." We should give him credit for having more of a team-first approach this year.

amen!

[misteradiant]

ya know.. it's not the first time i've heard the suns compared to the patriots. =)

i just threw up a little in my mouth.

[misteradiant]

If a topic becomes ludicrous and ridiculous (a topic which defies COMMON SENSE and LOGIC)...how about not fueling the insanity? Instead we have half the board talking about trading our only low post presence. Have I enetered the Twilight Zone???

doc, it is my learned opinion that half of all people are generally idiots. they are everywhere, on every board, every voting booth, every job. short of calling for the termination of those with iq's below 100, i just poke fun at them. the humor alleviates my stress and helps me go on without becoming a complete monster. thought maybe that might help you.

:)

please don't scram from this place. guys like you and nodak and many others who don't find problems with a win over san antonio are needed. i beseech you to stay.

[Doctor_G]

Bottom line: We can't expect to defend one of the top 3 most experienced and potent players in the league with a player who is and will continue to be "trying his damndest to stay out of foul trouble". with the blessings of the coach because our options are limited.

In my book that's another playoff elimination.

You didn't even comprehend the post. So I'll spell it out for you again. When Amare looked at Duncan last yr, he was called for a friggin phantom foul time after time. So this time around, Amare had no idea what to expect last night. He layed off him the entire first half in order to stay out of foul trouble. The topic was no doubt discussed at the half, 'cause it showed in the second half when he actually played some "D" on Ducan (along with Sklnner taking some of the duty). Amare swatted some balls away, and played him agressively.

Considering the ludicrous and BS calls Amare has had to deal with in the past trying to guard Duncan...I see last nights second half as progress in the right direction. Nothing to write home about, but progress nonetheless.

[Nodack]

I do think Amare has been playing better defense in the sense that he has been defending with his arms straight up instead of reaching in and getting fouls called on him as much. Like you said it's nothing to write home about, but it is a start in the right direction. I'm kind of glad that teams are attacking Amare so much in the post. There is nothing like trial by fire to force improvement.

A lot is said about his lack of touches and blame has been spread around to Amare, the team and the coach. The more I think about it the more I think it has to do with fouls. Amare dropped the back to the basket moves I suspect because he was getting called for an offensive foul almost every time when he would spin around a defender only to run into another defender waiting to pick up the charge. I don't think he should have dropped it completely, but it appears for now that he has. Maybe we will see a return of it someday. On the other side of the coin he gets a lot of fouls called on him on defense too and I suspect between the two that he feels like he is walking on eggshells and it has made him tentative and much less aggressive.

The good news if this is true is that Amare is just playing tentative out of necessity and not because he's sulking or injured or the team is intentionally not giving him the ball because they don't like Amare or some dumb thing like that. Amare is a pretty determined guy and I'm sure he isn't enjoying these games walking on eggshells worrying about fouls. Barbosa had the same problem and has seemed to have overcome being foul prone this year.

It's early in the season and he is improving. Before we start fifty more trade threads why don't we wait and see how it all plays out in the end of the season. We just might be pleasantly surprised.

[Wormwood]

Barbosa has been learning to play defense without fouling for a long time, and he's actually pretty good at it now, especially compared with where he started. Here are his fouls per 48 in the 5 years he's been in the league. In fact, they have gone down every year!

5.845433255
5.584642234
4.304160689
3.816513761
3.348837209

Basically, he's almost cut them in half. Not bad at all.

[Nodack]

Yeah, I remember us having the same conversations we are having about Amare talking about Barbosa's foul problems. Barbosa wouldn't get passive like Amare has, he would still go full out and just get pulled when he was in foul trouble. Barbosa was a bench player playing somewhat limited minutes to begin with so it wasn't as much of a problem as it is with Amare, our cornerstone big man, inside presence. We need Amare to stay in the game and play big minutes for us and if he has to play passive to stay out of foul trouble, then it's a problem when the other teams are scoring at will inside.

I think Amare is a smart and determined guy with a lot of pride and I'm sure he is way more aware of the situation than any of us are. I doubt he likes being abused by opposing centers and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him improve considerably by the end of the season.

[scosuns]

That's why its important to give Skinner some minutes at the 5 and play Amare at the 4. It will be a lot better.

[misteradiant]

didn't coach say something to the effect earlier this season, that he wanted amare playing all out and if fouls were an issue, then so be it. he said he preferred amare playing like that and on the bench rather than seeing him getting stomped at both ends of the floor. i agree with that assesment. i'd love amare kicking everybody's ass for 25 minutes a game with 5 or 6 fouls than him getting trounced for 20 or 30 minutes like he was imitating boris, a world-renowned pansy player with proclivities for philandering co-ed pornography at $110,000 a game like he was really something more than one player better than eric piatkowski.

amare needs to play like THE man when he is on the floor, and let the team continue to kick hot asphalt when he's on the bench. that's when skinner plays. i've thought some on the desire to see skinner and stoudemire play together. i think they are better utilized playing opposite each other and not together.

if amare would commit himself to defense and running at the start of games he'd find himself the offensive force he dreams he can be. it's likely he will be foul prone playing like that. okay. let skinner play 20 a game. as for boris, well, we'll just wait for his sorry contract turn into something we can trade in a few years. we're stuck with him. he's on track to get censored on this board by the year 2012. like that one guy. you know who i'm talking about. censored.

if you don't know, then you're a rookie, no matter how many posts you have. you belong to a group with a history you aren't aware of. if you do know, then it's opposite. either way, i'm lookin' at you.

language and words. what fun.

who was that guy who ended all his posts with his name? steve? here's to that guy.

- misteradiant

[Phoenix219]

I was around when he-who-cannot-be-named started, but i missed the exact moment. How did that come about?