Game Day: Suns @ Evil Empire (Spurs)

[Superbone]

If the Suns can't get up for this one...

Dis∙cuss

[darrkin]

I have faith, not sure why but i do..oh yeah probably because Parker wont play.

[JackArse]

I concur. - with the 'can't get up for this one'

like i said, it's not the end of the world, but this is a game you have to get up for at least.

[INFORMER]

The Suns will win tonight, though it ticks me off that Parker won't play.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

Spurs have improved..I am picking the Spurs to win w/o TP..I wonder if Nash will hide on Bowen or will he gaurd TP's backup? This is a big December game if we don't win changes may be on the way..We NEED change if we want to win a ring Kerr is no fool.

[SwingMan]

Jacque Vaughn is a little waterbug, but he's no playmaker. Keep him from penetrating and we'll be fine.

No more warm-up for Skinner - tonight's the night.....

[Shabazz]

Jacque Vaughn is a little waterbug, but he's no playmaker. Keep him from penetrating and we'll be fine.

No more warm-up for Skinner - tonight's the night.....

I'm very interested to see how Skinner and Hill do tonight. I liked seeing Hill on Chris Paul against NO and he actually did a respectable job (Paul shot 8-20). I could see us putting Hill on Parker when TP does return, which would allow Marion to roam and trap/double Duncan a little more.

I don't like to predict Suns games, but I really think we win this one convincingly. The biggest factor will be Amare playing controlled and not getting into foul trouble early.

[INFORMER]

I wonder if Nash will hide on Bowen or will he gaurd TP's backup?

If Nash can't guard Jacque Vaughn, then this team is in trouble.

[Velo]

Truck the Spurs... Truck them straight to Heck.

[Bogyo]

suns win

[scosuns]

Skinner will be getting some solid minutes tonight. Does anyone know if Parker is playing?

[cap]

Xmas party tonight. I won’t be able to watch. That’s probably a good thing.

[Superbone]

Xmas party tonight. I won’t be able to watch. That’s probably a good thing.

Your loss. Although I find it hard to believe cap doesn't own a dvr.

[MTSunsFan]

Xmas party tonight. I won’t be able to watch. That’s probably a good thing.

Why's that? Because you'll be to nervous to watch or because you think they'll get beat?

[Spanky]

I hope there is an elbow in Horrys chops tonight.

[BigLewy]

I hope there is a well-timed elbow to floppy's eye socket.

[BobbyDogg]

Start Skinner, Damn you!!

[MEE]

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/7.gifBEAT S.A.http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/7.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/7.gifBEAT S.A.http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/7.gif

[Ben_Dejo]

Manu must hit the wood hard tonite. We have to show them they aren't going to walk over us. If we don't play physical, we let them belive they're in our heads.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y244/d-monk/ginobli.jpg

[misteradiant]

agreed. we must play them hard. we must throw elbows when we rebound. we must block a ton of shots. we must run fast and defend energetically. if we do these things we will win.

[harry_pair]

i bet the starters (suns) each play over 35 min tonight. can't wait to see which one of the spurs subs has his career night.

and raja, please for the love of God, give ginosebli a taste of his own medicine tonight. flatten that corksucker once and for all.

[WestCoastBias]

looks like that $16 million isnt doing a good job of stopping duncan or boxing him out.

hopefully it will do better in the 2nd half

[Spanky]

Is Oberto related to Kamen? Ugh.. we make fire!!!! Goofy lookin' mo-fo. :D

[Catharsis]

I think Oberto is the poster boy for why the NBA needs to adopt regulations for flopping and misleading officials. That arm grab he did on Diaw is the perfect example. It's one thing to flop on a charge. It's another to grab your opponent's arm, fling yourself into him simulating being pulled, but when you argue with the official after being caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you need to shut up or be fined. San Antonio is brilliant at this.

Btw, I loved 45's opening with Green Day. Well deserved.

[triplethreat06]

soo...that foul on Bonner wasn't a flop by Nash? He wasn't even trying to play defense he just kinda fell

[triplethreat06]

ooh damn I liked that Diaw spin and dish to STAT, NICE!

[pagielak]

Why is Duncan whining all the time? I can't stand him...

[SpecialSauce]

Diaw is playin like $9 million right now. If he plays like shit against every other team but plays like this every time we play the Spurs, you will NEVER hear me complain. It seems like everybody's game suffers big time when we play the Spurs with the exception of Amare and Steve

[FurlanFufi]

Someone knows if D'antoni told Barbs to stop penetrating?
He's trying just 3's and long 2's!

[triplethreat06]

You realize he's playing well because he's getting the ball exactly where he needs it, right outside the paint. Perfect space for him to operate. Oh, and that's exactly where Amare needs the ball too...hmm...I wonder why they rarely have a good game together...

Seriously though, they need to alternate StAT and Diaw in the post and let them create, it's a two-headed unstoppable monster if they can learn to share the spotlight.

[SpecialSauce]

Someone knows if D'antoni told Barbs to stop penetrating?


That's disgusting!

[Ben_Dejo]

That's disgusting!
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha

[AlanS]

At the half:

[1] Good first half by Boris. He was very effective by going to his post up game, and then looking to score. The Spurs are now having to respect his scoring, so they are starting to crowd him, which is creating passing lanes to Amare.

As I recall, Boris was very effective doing post-ups in one of the playoff games vs the Spurs. But then, the Spurs seemed to change their defense, and then Boris lost his aggressiveness. I hope that doesn't happen in this game.

[2] Nash's shooting slump continues. He's just 0/3 from the field.

[3] Duncan is awesome, but somehow, it's not bothering me too much. Does he have the energy to shoot enough shots to score 40-50 pts? I guess we'l see.

[4] Spurs are just 1/9 from the arc, and that has me nervous. I have to think some of those shots will start falling. To be honest. i'd rather the Suns keep the Spurs off the arc, and force Duncan to make a million shots, than allow the Spurs to make 3s.

[5] leandro's on-again, off-again offense nights continue. He is just 1/6 from the arc.

[6] Marion is 2/5, which means he's not getting enough touches. So please, make sure he doesn't take the last shot of the game.

[SpecialSauce]

It disgusts me when you see everybody but Amare run on offense. Marion comes in and steals the entry pass to Duncan in the post, saves it and throws it out as he's falling out of bounds, and then turns and passes Amare as everyone else is running up the court. Amare just walks up, not even jogs, what the hell??

[SpecialSauce]

You realize he's playing well because he's getting the ball exactly where he needs it, right outside the paint. Perfect space for him to operate. Oh, and that's exactly where Amare needs the ball too...hmm...I wonder why they rarely have a good game together...

Seriously though, they need to alternate StAT and Diaw in the post and let them create, it's a two-headed unstoppable monster if they can learn to share the spotlight.

Wrong. It has nothing to do with where he's suddenly getting the ball. He's been getting the ball there all season. His entire mentality has been different the last few games, which is good. He's making the shots he normally wouldn't even attempt.

[SpecialSauce]

Watching this game makes me realize how much I really hate Tim Duncan and the Spurs. My level of hatred for this team doesn't even compare to my hatred for anything else.

[triplethreat06]

Wrong. It has nothing to do with where he's suddenly getting the ball. He's been getting the ball there all season. His entire mentality has been different the last few games, which is good. He's making the shots he normally wouldn't even attempt.

And I can't remember a game when we've gone to him on 3 consecutive plays.

[SpecialSauce]

And I can't remember a game when we've gone to him on 3 consecutive plays.

We don't go to him or Amare nearly enough. We go to Grant and LB farrrrrrrrrrrr too much. We strictly use the pick and roll as a diversion this year, we never actually feed the guy that rolls, and I hate how we've turned into a dribble penetration team. We should use Boris and Amare EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT when we're running a halfcourt offense.

[triplethreat06]

We don't go to him or Amare nearly enough. We go to Grant and LB farrrrrrrrrrrr too much. We strictly use the pick and roll as a diversion this year, we never actually feed the guy that rolls, and I hate how we've turned into a dribble penetration team. We should use Boris and Amare EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT when we're running a halfcourt offense.

My sentiments exactly.

[triplethreat06]

That was just a good quarter of basketball.

[SpecialSauce]

Leander just took the words out of my mouth "Leandro will jack it up AGAIN"

[BobbyDogg]

What do you know. Skinner plays Duncan decent and then Amare is put back on him and immediately picks up two fouls.

[triplethreat06]

LB is so one-dimensional it's not even funny

[Dustbuster]

When Diaw plays like this, the Suns are such a better team. He has been far more valuable than Amare tonight, but they also had some very nice plays between them in the second quarter. Diaw has also played pretty good defense tonight. So far he has been the Suns best player tonight. Please, Boris, keep it up!

Skinner actually makes a lot of those long jumpers. Who would have thought?

The Suns have played a pretty strong game. A big key for me is keeping Ginobli under control. He is the one that seems to really take over games against the Suns. Just about all of the Suns wins against the Spurs in recent years have been when Ginobli stays fairly contained.

[BobbyDogg]

Man. It's times like this when I wish we had KG on our team.

...sigh...

[triplethreat06]

omg I knew Ginobli was going to get the ball there...damn what a freakin shot

[jkalldaway]

Boris is my favorite player to watch on this team when he plays aggressively.

Why the hell does Amare only get 9 shots?

Grant Hill is great, I love what he brings this team.

Skinner is playing well above expectations.

Don't trade anyone.

[BORISDIAW4MVP]

Good win.

[pagielak]

Wow I can't believe it. NIce win!

[triplethreat06]

YES! Feels so good to beat em on their floor...no longer undefeated there anymore.

So a few things about the end of the game:

1. Amare recovers from that boneheaded offensive foul on Bowen to steal the ball from Duncan, and gets an offensive rebound on Nash's 3 point miss.

2. D'antoni plays Offense/Defense at the end sitting Amare for Skinner.

3. D'antoni subs Boris in when Duncan sits, prompting him to steal the ball from one of the best ball handlers in the game, Ginobli

Good moves by Mike at the end. Boris and Amare play well together. All is good.

[Spanky]

*uck yeah.... Nice. Stick that up your ass SA. You're a shitty ass city anyway.

[Dustbuster]

That's what I'm talking about, baby! Great game right down to the wire, and nice to see the Suns execute when it matters.

You know its a weird night when Nash leads the team in rebounds. Unfortunately, his shooting is still very, very poor for him. Amare was less than mediocre except for the last few minutes, when he came up pretty big.

I thought that Grant Hill would be a nice asset against the Spurs, and he proved me right tonight. Surprisingly, it was not only offensively, but defensively.

[SpecialSauce]

I'm not impressed by tonight's win in the least bit, because we will go nowhere in the playoffs with Amare taking 9 shots and LB jacking shots up like it's nobody's business.

Amare played like shit as usual on defense, and the only thing I bothered to watch this game was the defense on TD. Without Parker, a win or loss was besides the point; I was more interested in how we would handle Duncan. D'Antoni clearly doesn't plan on using Skinner any more than he used KT, and so the responsibility is on Amare.....who clearly shows no interest in handling it. But then again, why would he? When he knows all his effort is going so that LB can run down and throw up a shot with 3 guys in his face, why would he hustle on the defensive end? If I was an All NBA 1st Teamer who would be getting a minimum of 15 shots a night on any other team in the league, I would sit there and jerk off too when the sixth man is a black hole and the team seems to encourage that.

This team is going nowhere if we don't do something. This year is worse than ever before, we have become the Denver Nuggets (LB is AI and GH is 'Melo). We're using Amare like he's a Marcus Camby/Ben Wallace type of player, and that just will not get the job done...he SUCKS at it. We also completely disregard that we have one of the smartest post players in the league (Boris), and we are content to watch LB and Hill dribble penetrate and launch midrangers. At least Hill's are more under control.

[Nashfan]

Finally a win against the Spurs with Amare in foul trouble and Nash not shooting his best and Marion not really playing well. Glad coach played Skinner there, he did a great job when he was in on Duncan. Grant was a difference maker in this game in my opinion. I'm sure the Spurs fans will say we won only because Parker wasn't playing. But how about when Amare and Kurt were out that one season and they beat us? Looked like we played half court at times tonight, don't know if that was by design or by the Spurs forcing us to play this way. Now lets get a win in Dallas!!

[BORISDIAW4MVP]

Nash is playing with a grocery list full of injuries, so you can't really criticize his shooting. His playmaking and presence on the floor more than make up for it.

Nice to see Boris staying agressive even after some BAD misses. He is such a smart player.

Grant Hill was the free agent steal of the summer, no doubt.

[Wormwood]

Good to get the win, but why the hell is D'Antoni not playing Skinner on TD more? Skinner was the only one who could slow him down at all, and he was killing us out there.

More Skinner on TD,please. Anything else is just stupid.

[SpecialSauce]

LB took 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! shots.

[SunsFan4Life]

I love sticking it to those Bastards. But again it came down to a Bowen 3 in the croner..He makes that we're talking about how bad we are...if he missed it last yr in game 5 we're talking about a championship team possibly.

It comes down to 1 or 2 shots between these two teams.

encouraged
The Ability to Get 3's off against SA. Did it much better then last yr where they completely shut LB and Bell down.

Grant Hill. SA gives you that that midrange shot and we finally got osmeone who can stick it. Oh and his D was asome tonight. We can stick him on Manu and Raja on Tony IMO.

Boris...and his ability to draw 2 spurs defender leaving Leo or Raja or Grant open for 3. Boris played very well tonight give him props fellas cause we dawg him when he doesn't

Dissapointing

Duncan Abused Amare tonight. Duncan will abuse about 95% of the NBA but we need to find a way to be in that other 5%.

They Won without Parker True, but everyone knows Suns-Spurs is gonna come down the ability of the suns to somehow contain Duncan cause we sure ant gonna stop him.

[jkalldaway]

Dude, Hill is great I have no problem with him shooting. As far as LB, without him being that threat to score, the defense would bog down our offense. Amare needs more touches but don't hate on LB for playing within the system.

[Nashfan]

I would like to see Amare and Skinner play at times together so Amare can go off offensively. I agree with Sauce that Barbosa is taking way too many shots and Amare needs more touches. Obviously, Nash is still hurting since his shot is not on and it probably didn't help much with Bowen bouncing him around tonight. I was amazed that they actually called fouls on Bowen tonight. I thought the team still looked sluggish though. Good win with slugging it out, but we have to get better all the way around. I'm not use to our team missing so many shots and we are still having lapses in defense. Need another big man to help out though! I'll take the win though!!

[Spanky]

LB took 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! shots.

Enough of the LB bullshit. We can clearly see he shoots too much. You're only preachin' to the choir. If Amare would step up and quit being such a lazy ass defender and take more of a leadership role, maybe he would get the ball more.

[Suns_Dave]

I'm so pleased with Hill this season. I thought for sure he'd be out of the lineup by now and recovering from another procedure, a la Brian Grant in 05-06.

Solid win in San Antonio tonight, let's keep the ball rolling in Dallas on Wednesday and put together another run -- the right kind of run.

[Spanky]

Once again, Shawn withers and disappears against SA... Steve wasn't all that brilliant tonight, either. Raja? Where are are you?

[AlanS]

[1] At this time, any win is a great win. Spurs were playing w/o TP, and that no doubt hurt them. Still, the Suns have been banged up too, so I don't feel sorry for the Spurs. I would say the basketball gods are finally starting to even things up... but they have a lot more work to do.

[2] Good thing one: Boris and Barbosa They were horrible in the Spurs playoff series last season. But this game, they were key. After a 1/6 first half, Barbosa hits 5/13 in the second half. Not great, but a decent recovery. Meanwhile, Boris with 11 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asst and a steal in 30 minutes... these are the numbers we've been expecting since the start of last season.

Together with Skinner, the Killer Bs (Boris, Barbosa, and Brian... get it?) were huge, playing 74 minutes, scoring 33 pts, getting 9 rebs, making 7 assists. We needed this tonight.

[3] Good thing two: Grant Hill played exactly like the Suns hoped he would. He shot great, he rebounded well, and gave great help defense. He was probably the player of the game.

[4] The efforts of the Killer Bs and Hill were vital, because once again, Nash shot poorly (3/8 FGs) and Amare had "just" 17 pts and 6 rebs... a far cry from the dominating performances he's had vs the Spurs.

A point I made earlier is, if Nash and Stat continue to play at a level far below their 1st-Team all-NBA level of 06/07, I couldn't see how the Suns could succeed. But tonight, Nash and Stat were good, not great... and the Suns were still able to eke out a road win. Maybe there is hope after all. Maybe.

[INFORMER]

I'm not impressed by tonight's win in the least bit, because we will go nowhere in the playoffs with Amare taking 9 shots and LB jacking shots up like it's nobody's business.

Amare played like shit as usual on defense, and the only thing I bothered to watch this game was the defense on TD. Without Parker, a win or loss was besides the point; I was more interested in how we would handle Duncan. D'Antoni clearly doesn't plan on using Skinner any more than he used KT, and so the responsibility is on Amare.....who clearly shows no interest in handling it. But then again, why would he? When he knows all his effort is going so that LB can run down and throw up a shot with 3 guys in his face, why would he hustle on the defensive end? If I was an All NBA 1st Teamer who would be getting a minimum of 15 shots a night on any other team in the league, I would sit there and jerk off too when the sixth man is a black hole and the team seems to encourage that.

This team is going nowhere if we don't do something. This year is worse than ever before, we have become the Denver Nuggets (LB is AI and GH is 'Melo). We're using Amare like he's a Marcus Camby/Ben Wallace type of player, and that just will not get the job done...he SUCKS at it. We also completely disregard that we have one of the smartest post players in the league (Boris), and we are content to watch LB and Hill dribble penetrate and launch midrangers. At least Hill's are more under control.

:? OK.

[SpecialSauce]

Bullshit JK LB does not play within the system. That is the biggest horse shit I've ever heard and I'm so tired of the Barbosa homers on this board. He takes AI/Steph/Kobe type of shots. Low percentage jump shots. He'll dribble the ball down, wait wait wait, then just launch a shot up. How the hell is that within the system? I don't mind when he shoots an open 3 or the ball swings around to him and he drives in for the layup, but this year he has REALLY turned to holding onto the ball and thinking he is the next AI.

[SpecialSauce]

Enough of the LB bullshit. We can clearly see he shoots too much. You're only preachin' to the choir. If Amare would step up and quit being such a lazy ass defender and take more of a leadership role, maybe he would get the ball more.

By that logic LB is the best defender and the best leader on the team :roll:

[INFORMER]

Meanwhile, Boris with 11 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asst and a steal in 30 minutes... these are the numbers we've been expecting since the start of last season.


WORD.

[misteradiant]

hero of the game is coach mike. when he brought in skinner at that defensive stance and sat amare, it was skinner who battled underneath and kept duncan from getting the rebound, thereby allowing grant to retrieve the ball. then coach came in with boris for the offensive set and he grabbed that killer steal. those two calls by coach netted us two extra possessions in the final seconds of the game. i am glad coach d'antoni is making these kind of personnel calls now. it gives me great hope for the rest of the season. maybe also it will light a fire under amare's derrière. he talked about defense after the game with leander and i thought he mostly got torched by duncan, with little fire given back in return on the offensive end. i wish amare would be even more aggressive, but maybe that would be too much. it also looks like he can't jump like he used to and that saddens me.

boris has extended his welcome on the suns. he looked good. got himself a +6 rating to go with 11 points and 6 assists in 30 well-played minutes. he was aggressive and went inside a few times, sometimes going for it and scoring or dishing out to open men. i really don't think he got the steal at the end of the game as much as manu was a little out of control and all boris had to do was literally step in between his wide dribble and his legs. those are the times we appreciate the too cool boris, when it doesn't come off as if he could care less.

amare's catchphrase is "no doubt about it."

we got 8 blocked shots. i wish shawn would have had 3 instead of 1 but 8 blocks is pretty good.

in all, we beat the spurs. let nobody tell you "it was without tony parker," like it diminished our triumph in any way. i don't see them taking back game five when we were without amare and boris or apologizing for their championship. tonight we beat them, the formerly undefeated at home team, the dreaded spurs, for the first time in almost five years. we beat them, they lost, ha ha.

and man, have you ever seen a team whine more about calls? duncan, horry and ginobaldy were bad but bowen literally grabs skinners leg, lifts and tries to turn it but has the unmitigated bile-flavored gall to accost the refs and my eyes with gestures and words in protest for his innocence. i lifted my hand before my iron gaze and pinched his head off. it made me feel better. he lost. ha ha.

[Spanky]

By that logic LB is the best defender and the best leader on the team :roll:

No, I think I am stating that Amare needs to demand the ball and quit being a lazy ass on the other end. The reason Leandro does what he does, is because he doesn't have a guy in his face (you know, a leader?).

[SpecialSauce]

Maybe he does Spanky, and that's why the chemistry isn't as great this year. I wouldn't be surprised, and I wouldn't blame Amare, if he's been barking at his teammates to get him the ball more. That would explain him slacking on D and energy-wise in general, and the constant tidbits about tension in the locker room.

[misteradiant]

I'm not impressed by tonight's win in the least bit...

well, no cookie for you. go sulk and be negative somewhere else, man. we beat the spurs and it feels GREAT! i know many agree. i can't believe that we just beat the spurs in san antonio, and you aren't thilled as a baby on a tit. man, that's some unhappy mojo to have to live with.

:twisted:

[Spanky]

Maybe he does Spanky, and that's why the chemistry isn't as great this year. I wouldn't be surprised, and I wouldn't blame Amare, if he's been barking at his teammates to get him the ball more. That would explain him slacking on D and energy-wise in general, and the constant tidbits about tension in the locker room.

If in fact it is one of the reasons for chemistry issues, maybe the coach needs to quit being a pansy ass and quit babying the egos.

[Spanky]

we beat the spurs and it feels GREAT! i know many agree. i can't believe that we just beat the spurs in san antonio,

Awwwwwww YEAH... feels fuckin great. :mrgreen:

[INFORMER]

The Suns will win tonight

:wink:

[Spanky]

:wink:

Is there a way to pass an E-Beer? :mrgreen:

[RDM2]

That game was extremely entertaining. Just really glad Boris came through for us on a night we needed it. He knows he can do it...we know he can do it, just do it man! Every night.

[darrkin]

Great win. Gutty and also we won kinda ugly, playoff style. This is exactly the kind of win we couldnt have gotten a couple years ago, thanks Grant. What a difference a shot creator can make. He is so smooth. I thought Amare played ok, he is getting better folks, quit panicking about the diminishing athletic ability, its coming back, dont forget about a few of those slams at the end. His legs are coming back. Best thing about this win is that Nash and Bell pretty much sucked-for them, and we won. Boris was back also---Finally!! Who knows maybe the team is starting to get pissed off about losing...this team still has loads of talent if they get angry and hungry, watch out. Also, I get mad at barbs sometimes, but he is also so money sometimes its hard to....he is our Ginobili, kinda crazy sometimes bad shots sometimes amazing, but we need him. I love the guy, still think our weakness is simply missing many wide wide open J's-mainly Raja, I wish we could go after another shooter when Raja is struggling

[Xcon]

Great win. Grant is the f**king man, great pickup. Enough of the LB stuff, without him we lose tonight, fer christ sakes he was our second leading scorer. Please keep Skinner on Duncan, and Amare off. Boris was aggresive..for Boris, yeah. Oh yeah, and F*CK the Spurs.

[SpecialSauce]

If in fact it is one of the reasons for chemistry issues, maybe the coach needs to quit being a pansy ass and quit babying the egos.

That's another issue for another time. I think 90% of the members here feel like coach has some things he needs to improve on BIG TIME by the time the playoffs roll around.

[darrkin]

Its funny, but we are playing all three of my least favorite teams in next few days. I hate SA, glad we got this win, this makes up for about 4 losses. I hate Dallas, and we have to find a way to beat LA over Christmas.....You just know they will play outta their minds on national tv, i hope we kill them.....great win though tonight, real happy for the guys to get that monkey a little bit off their nuts!

[SpecialSauce]

well, no cookie for you. go sulk and be negative somewhere else, man. we beat the spurs and it feels GREAT! i know many agree. i can't believe that we just beat the spurs in san antonio, and you aren't thilled as a baby on a tit. man, that's some unhappy mojo to have to live with.

:twisted:

Can't disagree with you, MR. This one just doesn't feel the same. I went to game 4 in SA last season, and that was no joke top 5 happiest moments of my life, yelling at the top of my lungs as the Suns stole the game, not knowing yet that Horry had stolen the series.

Any win against SA has always been my favorite, I enjoy watching the Suns beat the Spurs more than any other team in the league. I just can't sit down and enjoy a game this season because the team is SO undisciplined. Every player on the team thinks he is a superstar, except for Diaw (who is the other extreme). I think it all starts with the coach, and I just can't enjoy a game until I see players out there that DON'T seem like they've completely tuned out the coach.

[Spanky]

I think Texas should be given back to Mexico... :D Yeah, I'm messing with Texas... so what?

[darrkin]

I want the old Saucy back! You may need to go back on the sauce. I get what your saying to a point, and think we could use some other pieces, but lets try to just see what happens-something will probably change anyway, its a long flippin season

[Shabazz]

A lot of negativity Saucy, considering we haven't won a regular season game in SA in 4 years.

I actually thought it was a great win. We actually played at SAs pace most of the game and most of our offense came in the half-court. Gutting out a road win against a 13-0 home team that we have a mental block against is impressive no matter which way you cut it, especially considering 2 of our starters (Marion, Raja) were invisible offensively and 2 others (Amare, Nash) had subpar games. Last year if all 4 of those guys had mediocre to bad games against the Spurs we lose by 25.

This game also showed us a few things:

1 - Grant Hill is a Stud. Love this guy. He's not afraid of taking the big shot in the 4th when Nash clearly doesnt have it going and he came up huge on the defensive end with that block on Duncan.

2 - Skinner can be an adequate defensive replacement for KT against the Spurs, which is really all we were looking for. He played a nice, physical game on Duncan and took him out of his game a little in the 2nd half.

3 - Boris Diaw is capable of playing 2 good games in a row. Coach must have pushed the right buttons with him, because he's looked a lot more aggresive lately and it's a pleasure to watch. This guy playing well can be the difference between winning a chip and losing in the 2nd round.

All in all, very solid win. I think something is wrong when we're complaining about a road win against the Spurs.

2 other points:

- For as well as Duncan played, I actually don't think Amare did that bad a job defensively. It looks like we flipped the script a little on San Antonio's strategy and were content letting Duncan get his while making the rest of the Spurs beat us. They didn't. As a result Amare looks bad, but the truth is we didn't throw a lot of double teams at Duncan and not too many guys would fare better one on one.
No one was calling Duncan a shitty defender when Amare averaged 37 against them in the playoffs, people were just saying it was by design. I think the same applied here.

-LB did jack some bad shots tonight, but we weren't getting any outside shooting from Nash or Bell (who missed some REALLY open shots) and LB did have a nice run in the 3rd quarter where he built up on the lead by himself. I know people want Amare to get more shots than LB, but they weren't on the court all that much together today so most of LBs shot's came when he was the 1st scoring option.

[AlanS]

Once again, Shawn withers and disappears against SA... Steve wasn't all that brilliant tonight, either. Raja? Where are are you?

Interesting thing is, Raja had a +7 for the night... he had the best +/- score on the team. The breakdown:
Raja +7
Diaw +6
Marion +5
Hill +4
LB +3
Nash +1
Amare -2
Skinner -4

Although Raja and Shawn did not score a lot, they had the best +/- scores of the starters. Which means that either their teammates carried them, or perhaps they played good defense to offset what they weren't doing scoring-wise.

[darrkin]

The great thing about this win is that you just knew with a minute and a half left and us down by one that we would choke.....but we didnt, they did.....its our year baby....ughh at least our night.....Diaw can have all the American women he wants, hes earned em tonight. I wonder if we get big wins against Dallas and Lakers if we will start to get our mojo back...hopefully this is a start to great things

[FrontRowSun]

HOW BOUT THOSE MINUTES!!!!

Nash 33 - No one over 35:10! Very Nice!!

Duncan played 36 minutes Manu 32, Finley 39......

But still.... We probably lose this game with Tony Parker playing.

I will take the win and the Minutes played!!!!

[scosuns]

Good win. Who knew Diaw would be our savior and seal the deal for us. Pretty funny. But he made a nice steal at the end. And Grant Hill was solid.

[misteradiant]

nice to beat them at home in the regular season. they already know we beat them at home during the playoffs. now they worry more. we have the edge and we will keep scheming ways to beat them. after the game, amare was interviewed and said it was the plan to let tim get his. well, we let that happen and we won the game. can we do that when they have tony or will we be torched by him, too. we'd lose those games where they both go off on us by ten or more. guess we'll find out next time as they're going to want payback for busting their little home win streak.

i cannot wait. bet a bunch of us can't. what fun that will be. playing the champions and beating them at home is sa-weet. again, the spurs aren't sorry they beat us without boris and amare. we'll beat them with tony next time, too, on tnt, thursday janurary 31st.

did you guys know that this is the 4th time duncan has gone over 35 and 15 and his team lost? maybe that really was the plan. if it was, its bloody genius.

[Spanky]

But still.... We probably lose this game with Tony Parker playing.


Noone will ever know if that is the case or not, but who cares? SA didn't care when two of our best players were suspended last season, as they rolled to a 'ship. They got their first home loss of the year, courtesy of the Purple and Orange, it's a good day. :mrgreen:

[darrkin]

HOW BOUT THOSE MINUTES!!!!

Nash 33 - No one over 35:10! Very Nice!!

Duncan played 36 minutes Manu 32, Finley 39......

But still.... We probably lose this game with Tony Parker playing.

I will take the win and the Minutes played!!!!

Not so sure about that, Parker is not always that great for them, also if he woulda scored more, others on the team wouldnt. It was a great hard fought win-gritty and ugly, usually the type of game we cant win-maybe this year we will have more fight in us. I think Diaw is starting to get it also...keeping fingers crossed-he is X-factor big time with this team.

[misteradiant]

and hey, i don't wish to pile on amare. he did have that offensive rebound and putback for a made and-one near the end. that was an awesome play.

[Spanky]

i cannot wait. bet a bunch of us can't. what fun that will be. playing the champions and beating them at home is sa-weet. again, the spurs aren't sorry they beat us without boris and amare. we'll beat them with tony next time, too, on tnt, thursday janurary 31st.

Great minds think alike. Your mind is as convoluted as mine... ok yours a bit more. LOL..



did you guys know that this is the 4th time duncan has gone over 35 and 15 and his team lost? maybe that really was the plan. if it was, its bloody genius.

Nope, that little bit of info was lost on me. WOW... I guess it makes me feel even better about this win.

[misteradiant]

yep. just saw that bit o' info on espn. so it must be true. go mickey mouse!

[BobbyDogg]

Great and much needed victory on SA's home floor. It gave me great joy and elation watching the Spurs try to slow down the game to a crawl and keep the Suns from shooting well and STILL lose the game. Also, it was almost orgasmic watching the fans, so confident their team is superior, see a choke job by Floppy on the last play and just stand there, mouths agape. Nice to see Bowen miss that three too, that SOB.

I understand what Saucy is saying because I was thinking along the same lines: get the ball to Amare and get him involved in the offense early. Make Duncan have to work on the defensive end. We just don't go to Amare enough and that makes him a jump-shooting bystander. Get him in the middle of the action and see what he can do to open up Hill, Nash, Bell, Barbs for open jumpers or slashes to the basket.

Barbosa is in the game for one reason and that's to get to the basket or shoot the three. That's what the coaches have told him to do and he's one of the best at it. However, I agree that the post should get the ball more often and that sometimes Barbosa dribbles too much.

But you have to agree, when he's on he's almost impossible to stop.

Good strategy by D'Antoni in letting Duncan get his but staying home on everybody else. No one can stop Duncan but you can limit his supporting cast and that's what the Suns did.



Great win for the Suns, even without Parker.

[misteradiant]

I understand what Saucy is saying because I was thinking along the same lines: get the ball to Amare and get him involved in the offense early. Make Duncan have to work on the defensive end. We just don't go to Amare enough and that makes him a jump-shooting bystander. Get him in the middle of the action and see what he can do to open up Hill, Nash, Bell, Barbs for open jumpers or slashes to the basket.

yes, that would be cool, wouldn't it?

[AZSportsFan]

Hawks won again... :(

But so did the Suns! :)

[Mori_Chu]

Suns beat Spurs... YES SIR, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

Take that, Horry, you thug.

Take that, Bruce Bowen, you grabbing, hacking, karate-kick-to-the-face-ing bastard.

Take that, Tim "Who? Me? I never commit a foul!" Duncan.

Take that, Manu Giflopoli.

Take that, Fabricio "Flopper #2" Oberto.

Hey, entire city of San Antonio: OWNED! Get used to it; see you in May, mofos.

[Superbone]

Watching this game makes me realize how much I really hate Tim Duncan and the Spurs. My level of hatred for this team doesn't even compare to my hatred for anything else.

You're not kidding. I had forgotten how much I hate the Spurs. Everything about them pissed me off tonight. Their whining players and their whining fans.

Sweet win.

[jed]

I wish I could say good win, but I saw a lot that concerned me.

Again, multiple other Suns had more shots than Amare. Hill. Boris -- yes, that Boris. Barbosa had twice as many.

Meanwhile, Coach has Skinner in to finish the game while Amare rides the pine.

I could go on and on about how shortsighted we are to be using Amare thusly. I could also go for awhile about how he needs to shore up his defense -- though he tends to do so when he is being used. Instead, I'll float a theory:

We're going to trade Amare. Whether right or not, whether we like it or not, he's finding a place in D'Antoni's doghouse. And as we all know, not many emerge from that place.

[Superbone]

The Suns will win tonight

Good call, Inf. Now they just have to win the next one for your 3-1 prediction to come true.

[Shabazz]

In other news, Miami defeated Minnesota 91-87 in the "We beat Phoenix, so we got that going for us" Bowl.

[jkalldaway]

Sauce, get off the sauce. You analysis of LB tonight is so far fetched that I really do not even know why I am commenting. LB is playing within the system. He shot the wide open three, he faked and took two dribbles and tried his pull up, and he drove hard to the hole. Did they always go in? Hell no? But the fact that he has the ability to make those shots kept the defense honest. I admit, I screamed at the TV when Amare wasn't getting the ball. But like it or not, the shots LB took were not as bad as you are making them out to be.

[jkalldaway]

I don't think he is in the dog house but I agree he will be moved by management in the coming weeks.

[jkalldaway]

I wish I could say good win, but I saw a lot that concerned me.

Again, multiple other Suns had more shots than Amare. Hill. Boris -- yes, that Boris. Barbosa had twice as many.

Meanwhile, Coach has Skinner in to finish the game while Amare rides the pine.

I could go on and on about how shortsighted we are to be using Amare thusly. I could also go for awhile about how he needs to shore up his defense -- though he tends to do so when he is being used. Instead, I'll float a theory:

We're going to trade Amare. Whether right or not, whether we like it or not, he's finding a place in D'Antoni's doghouse. And as we all know, not many emerge from that place.

They had Skinner in because Amare had 5 fouls, they were preserving him in case of OT. You can bet that if the game went to OT, Amare would have been in at the start of the period.

[Shabazz]

I wouldn't read too much into the Amare/Skinner sub at the end of the game. Classic defense-offense switch. Skinner does a better job on Duncan and I think even Amare would admit that. Besides, D'Antoni subbed Skinner for Diaw the next play down the court, not because Diaw's a better defender, but because Duncan was out and it was a better matchup.

If management is looking at breaking up the team I think this W bought the current Suns more time. Even if a move is made, it's gotta be more likely that Marion is the one to go. Say what you want about Amare, but at least he was visible tonight.

[jkalldaway]

I wouldn't read too much into the Amare/Skinner sub at the end of the game. Classic defense-offense switch. Skinner does a better job on Duncan and I think even Amare would admit that. Besides, D'Antoni subbed Skinner for Diaw the next play down the court, not because Diaw's a better defender, but because Duncan was out and it was a better matchup.

If management is looking at breaking up the team I think this W bought the current Suns more time. Even if a move is made, it's gotta be more likely that Marion is the one to go. Say what you want about Amare, but at least he was visible tonight.

When Kerr talks about defense he has to be talking about Amare. Marion has been great defensively this year.

[jed]

They had Skinner in because Amare had 5 fouls, they were preserving him in case of OT. You can bet that if the game went to OT, Amare would have been in at the start of the period.

I don't know, man. Not sure that's it.

This isn't the only recent game where Amare has sat at the end. Something foul's afoot, and whether or not Amare's at the center of the problem, it's starting to seem like coach -- if not more -- think he is.

[jed]

I wouldn't read too much into the Amare/Skinner sub at the end of the game. Classic defense-offense switch. Skinner does a better job on Duncan and I think even Amare would admit that.

Maybe so. Hopefully so.

But then there's that pesky issue of Amare being frozen out of the offense. It's not as though he's not producing when he's getting the ball. He makes his shots, he gets fouled, and he still shoots at a high percentage when he has the chance.

[sehan]

I don't know, man. Not sure that's it.

This isn't the only recent game where Amare has sat at the end. Something foul's afoot, and whether or not Amare's at the center of the problem, it's starting to seem like coach -- if not more -- think he is.

If it is the coach or Amare, don't let that door hits you on your way out Mike (I want a 5 on 5 midget game) D'Antonie.

Say what you will about Amare, but last couple of season clearly showed that without him, we would be glorified regular season winner with no ring - running out of steam in the playoffs.

[SpecialSauce]

Sauce, get off the sauce. You analysis of LB tonight is so far fetched that I really do not even know why I am commenting. LB is playing within the system. He shot the wide open three, he faked and took two dribbles and tried his pull up, and he drove hard to the hole. Did they always go in? Hell no? But the fact that he has the ability to make those shots kept the defense honest. I admit, I screamed at the TV when Amare wasn't getting the ball. But like it or not, the shots LB took were not as bad as you are making them out to be.


hooooooooooooooooooooooooooomer

[SpecialSauce]

Can I also just say that I won't be satisfied with just a win when we play on our home court? I fully expect retaliation on Robert Horry. If the Suns and D'Antoni have any balls whatsoever, they WILL retaliate with a nice hard foul on his I Am Legend ass

[Mori_Chu]

I agree that we should use Amare more. But in a way, I don't mind what they're doing with him right now. I think they know that he's still recovering from knee issues, and so they're trying to make him a complementary part of the team and not have the team become completely reliant on him. They let him get points in the flow of the offense rather than just passing it in to him every time down the court. They are also keeping his minutes down pretty well; I'll give Coach credit for that.

One of the hardest things about Amare's last unhealthy season was going from a team with a dominant Amare one night to him being completely gone the next. This year, I feel like if Amare had to sit for a few games, we would get by. And that's worth something.

[Xcon]

If it is the coach or Amare, don't let that door hits you on your way out Mike (I want a 5 on 5 midget game) D'Antonie.

Say what you will about Amare, but last couple of season clearly showed that without him, we would be glorified regular season winner with no ring - running out of steam in the playoffs.

Then again, how many rings do we have with Amare? We went as far 2 years ago without Amare as we did last year with him. I'm tired of everyone portraying Amare as a victim. If he's in position for the damn ball, then demand the damn ball. When Barkley was here, he'd demand the ball. I almost never see Amare post up down low and demand the ball. At least lately. He seems content on floating around the outside shooting jumpers. I wish he'd develop more of a back to the basket post game, especially with his decreased atheleticism, he can't blow by guys like he used to. He should have been taking notes from Al Jeffersen the other night in Minny. Work for low post position and demand the ball. If he's not getting the ball that much by design of Coach's system, then maybe we do need to decide which one should go since we're not getting as much use out of Amare as we could. I will say that the subbing done at the end of this game was great, seeing as Skinner was much more effective one on one with Duncan...and we wanted Amare to be available should it go OT.

[Wormwood]

Saucy,

I used to be Barbosa's biggest detractor on the board, and lord knows I dog guys whom I believe don't deserve playing time (Pike, Banks, and Marks), but I don't think Barbosa deserves as much vituperation as you're heaping on him.

Granted, he shoots a lot, and isn't a distributor. However, this is what's expected of him. He's our designated gunner, smae way house was, same way Q was. His job is to score, and hopefully try to D up quicker guys at the other end.

Stats wise, I don't think they back up your argument. His PER is still well above league average, the PER of people he's guarding is below league average (i.e. he seems to be an above average defender), and he has the fifth best net +/- on the team, despite being Nash's back up.

Is he playing as well as last year? No. He's still shooting .468 from the field, very respectable for a SG, and his mid-range game has made huge strides in the past two years. He's developed a nice stop and pop, as well as shooting the runner and the leaner in the lane. He also doesn't play nearly as out of control as he used to, rarely drawing offensive fouls anymore.

What hurts the most is his 3-point percentage of .344. This isn't good. We need him near 40% to be really effective. Given his career average of .408, and his age (25), there's no reason to believe this is much more than a slump. Guys go through them, and I expect he'll get hot again at some point. The only real concern is if his elbow is still bothering him. I notice he still has the sleeve on.

Given the system we have, if you're open, you shoot. Barbosa bought into the mindset, and given how active he is away from the ball, it's not surprising he gets so many shots off.

[MTSunsFan]

Great win! My only complaints (come on this is .net after all) are Nash (!) as our leading rebounder last night and Amare w/ only 9 shots. Time to get ready for the Mavs. Go Suns!

[sehan]

Xcon,

Its not like we have any rings with Mike either. All I know is looking at the three seasons from the 04 - 05 season and on, we have had the best shot with Amare on the team in the post season.

Secondly, you can't exactly post up and demand the ball, when there is no set designed for him to post up or if they never practiced that set. You also can't exactly post up if the coach and Nash is telling him to run a round and go set screens. But you are right he is not a great post up player, but there is other ways to get him involved. Malone was never the back to the basket type, but he did pretty well. I see Amare as more of Malone or Kemp (early days) type of player.

[misteradiant]

This isn't the only recent game where Amare has sat at the end.

really? what other games are you talking about?

[SpecialSauce]

Saucy,

I used to be Barbosa's biggest detractor on the board, and lord knows I dog guys whom I believe don't deserve playing time (Pike, Banks, and Marks), but I don't think Barbosa deserves as much vituperation as you're heaping on him.

Granted, he shoots a lot, and isn't a distributor. However, this is what's expected of him. He's our designated gunner, smae way house was, same way Q was. His job is to score, and hopefully try to D up quicker guys at the other end.

Stats wise, I don't think they back up your argument. His PER is still well above league average, the PER of people he's guarding is below league average (i.e. he seems to be an above average defender), and he has the fifth best net +/- on the team, despite being Nash's back up.

Is he playing as well as last year? No. He's still shooting .468 from the field, very respectable for a SG, and his mid-range game has made huge strides in the past two years. He's developed a nice stop and pop, as well as shooting the runner and the leaner in the lane. He also doesn't play nearly as out of control as he used to, rarely drawing offensive fouls anymore.

What hurts the most is his 3-point percentage of .344. This isn't good. We need him near 40% to be really effective. Given his career average of .408, and his age (25), there's no reason to believe this is much more than a slump. Guys go through them, and I expect he'll get hot again at some point. The only real concern is if his elbow is still bothering him. I notice he still has the sleeve on.

Given the system we have, if you're open, you shoot. Barbosa bought into the mindset, and given how active he is away from the ball, it's not surprising he gets so many shots off.

Worm, with all due respect....please don't throw stats at me when discussing something with me. I don't look at PER or +/- to determine how he affects our team chemistry and flow of the game. Fact is, he's not like Q and he's not like House. Both of them took their shots within the flow of the offense. LB is forcing shots up and bogging down the offense more than ever before.

[FurlanFufi]

Worm, with all due respect....please don't throw stats at me when discussing something with me. I don't look at PER or +/- to determine how he affects our team chemistry and flow of the game. Fact is, he's not like Q and he's not like House. Both of them took their shots within the flow of the offense. LB is forcing shots up and bogging down the offense more than ever before.


I read: "Worm, with all due respect...don't throw something we could measure or any reasonable data into discussion. I'm blind to any of this. Fact is, I don't like his game, I think he's killing our team, so just agree with me and move on."

[Wormwood]

Worm, with all due respect....please don't throw stats at me when discussing something with me. I don't look at PER or +/- to determine how he affects our team chemistry and flow of the game. Fact is, he's not like Q and he's not like House. Both of them took their shots within the flow of the offense. LB is forcing shots up and bogging down the offense more than ever before.


Truth does not exist in the absence of facts. We can throw opinions around all day long, but the only way to support an opinion is with things that are indisputable (or nearly so). You seem to believe Barbosa is the root of the team's problems. I contend that the facts do not universally support that conclusion.

BTW - I'm well aware that Barbs is a very different player than House and Q, but his role as a scorer is similar. Barbs job is to get open, let distributors find him, and get a shot up quickly if he's still open. Typically, it's easier to get open as a three point shooter than as an inside player. This probably has a lot to do with why he's getting so many shots. Amare is having trouble getting open underneath (for whatever reason), and Barbosa is finding himself reasonably open more often. I don't have the numbers on this, but it makes an intuitive sense.

Trust me, if Barbs is open up top, and Amare is open for the Dunk, Nash will get Amare the ball. But, given an open Barbosa and Amare with a guy or two right up on him in the post, Nash will usually get it to Barbosa. Our offensive system is very much built on "take what the defense gives you." When Barbosa is hitting those threes, it works very well indeed.

Will you sing a different tune if Barbs goes off for 40 on a 3 point killing spree?

[Nodack]

You mean the pick and roll? Nash and Amare have been doing the pick and roll for some time themselves and they didn't have much success with it last night. I could see them trying to set it up last night several times, but for some strange reason SA seemed to be expecting it and were able to shut it down. I don't think the Suns just forgot about Amare. I think the Spurs decided they were going to shut that part of our game down the same way the Suns decided to let TD have his and not double TD in the post and limit everybody else.

Amare didn't have a big game and TD did. The Suns could have decided to double TD in the post every time and limit him (if that is possible) and watch SA's three point shooters go off and then we could have all talked about how Amare did a good job on TD, but we messed up and played poor defense on their shooters.

I think we should pick the guy on the team who had the worst game after every game and have a whole thread dedicated to trade scenarios for that player. I know we pretty much do that anyways, but we mix that in with the other threads and it gets confusing for those of us that don't like reading that crap. Since nobody is on every game and somebody almost always has a poor performance we would have a variety of players to trade every few days. We could have the Amare can't play defense trade thread, the Barbosa black hole thread, the Nash is getting too old thread, the worthless piece of crap Diaw thread, the gonna break and ankle any moment Hill thread, the overpaid non shooting good Marion thread or the broken down too old Bell thread. I'm sure some of you would really enjoy a format like that and I would too so I could avoid it like the plague. :)

I was so happy that the ref caught Oberto on that play with Diaw in the first quarter I think it was. I watched the replay several times and almost couldn't believe the gall of that guy. Diaw and Oberto tangle in the post and then Oberto wraps up Diaws arm, yanks it towards Obertos's face/chest and then flails backwards to pretend that Diaw just elbowed him in the face. Then he argued with the ref like he was the innocent victim. I want to send that ref a box of chocolates or something and I want to put Oberto on my list of dirtiest players in the league, most of which already play for the Spurs coincidentally. They must have classes on dirty play there in SA because between Oberto, Ginobli and Bowen they sure seem to take a lot of pride in playing that way. It's one thing to flop or try to draw a foul or charge, but they take it to a whole new level.

BTW, good game Suns. SA undefeated in SA until the Suns came to town. Parker or not.

"Barbs takes too many shots and Amare doesn't take enough." I think Barbs is doing exactly what he is being asked to do and that is be aggressive and score. He doesn't need to be set up as he can create his own shot anytime he wants, which isn't the case with every player on the Suns. Amare is hard to figure out. Sometimes he is a monster and sometimes he is a pussy cat. He is either really into a game or not at all it seems. Is he nursing the knees or just sulking. Last night he was left one on one with TD on defense and TD got the better of that. Skinner is a little better on D than Amare, but still can't stop TD one on one for the most part. On offense I think that if you are open Nash will get you the ball no matter who you are. The Spurs made a big point to stop the pick and roll with Amare so the Suns being smarter than the average Suns fan decided to take what SA gave them instead of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

This is my first basketball post in about three weeks because I haven't enjoyed reading this site this year because it's mostly just people complaining about the team nonstop even after a victory against our most heated rival in their house. I think they give the Suns more respect on the Spurs site than we do here which is pretty freaking sad if you ask me.

[misteradiant]

I think we should pick the guy on the team who had the worst game after every game and have a whole thread dedicated to trade scenarios for that player.

you owe me 19.98 for my busted sarcasm meter. stupid made in china crap. bet i die of lead poisoning anyway.

still, it is a small price to pay for your presence, nodak. stick around. we need the straight and positive fan outlook to rise around here. i do my best sometimes and today i am amazed that this board isn't jumping joyfully that we beat the spurs.

[Wormwood]

Thanks for posting Nodack.

I wasn't referring to the pick and roll, specifically, but usually the guy on the wing is feeding off of pick and rolls where the dfense all collapses in on the paint.

[MTSunsFan]

Bless you, Nodack! Thanks for yet another reminder on how to keep things in perspective...

[Uncle_Gene]

Great win. They didn't give in down the stretch, they stayed strong.

Now go to Dallas and whip Dirk !

[Nodack]

Thanks guys, my pick and roll comment was in response to a post about 25 posts ago and I forgot to quote it and instead it just looks like I an a little crazy.

I'll try to post a little more if I can stand it. :) We all get frustrated with things sometimes and we like to vent, but I think sometimes we need a little perspective.

I get tired of a new trade proposal after every game for the guy who performed the worst that game. In my view 99.9999999999999% of the trade proposals never happen and us fans have 0% say in who gets traded 100% of the time anyways, so what is the point? If every trade scenario that was posted here went thru, we would have an entirely new team and coach every other week and that doesn't seem very productive to me. I would rather talk about ways the Suns could improve their games or strategies against other teams than the old standby, "He sucks and we need to trade him."

[Phoenix219]

I wonder how starting Diaw at Center, Amare at PF and Hill off the bench would work.

If we had the team chemistry of 1994 (a la manning/majerle), we could even start Nash/Barbs/Hill/Amare/Diaw and bring Marion/Bell/Skinner (or swap Bell/Barbs) off the bench for a punch (that old overdrive gear) but Marion would never go for it.

[jed]

You mean the pick and roll? Nash and Amare have been doing the pick and roll for some time themselves and they didn't have much success with it last night. I could see them trying to set it up last night several times, but for some strange reason SA seemed to be expecting it and were able to shut it down. I don't think the Suns just forgot about Amare. I think the Spurs decided they were going to shut that part of our game down the same way the Suns decided to let TD have his and not double TD in the post and limit everybody else.

Amare didn't have a big game and TD did. The Suns could have decided to double TD in the post every time and limit him (if that is possible) and watch SA's three point shooters go off and then we could have all talked about how Amare did a good job on TD, but we messed up and played poor defense on their shooters.

I think we should pick the guy on the team who had the worst game after every game and have a whole thread dedicated to trade scenarios for that player. I know we pretty much do that anyways, but we mix that in with the other threads and it gets confusing for those of us that don't like reading that crap. Since nobody is on every game and somebody almost always has a poor performance we would have a variety of players to trade every few days. We could have the Amare can't play defense trade thread, the Barbosa black hole thread, the Nash is getting too old thread, the worthless piece of crap Diaw thread, the gonna break and ankle any moment Hill thread, the overpaid non shooting good Marion thread or the broken down too old Bell thread. I'm sure some of you would really enjoy a format like that and I would too so I could avoid it like the plague. :)

I was so happy that the ref caught Oberto on that play with Diaw in the first quarter I think it was. I watched the replay several times and almost couldn't believe the gall of that guy. Diaw and Oberto tangle in the post and then Oberto wraps up Diaws arm, yanks it towards Obertos's face/chest and then flails backwards to pretend that Diaw just elbowed him in the face. Then he argued with the ref like he was the innocent victim. I want to send that ref a box of chocolates or something and I want to put Oberto on my list of dirtiest players in the league, most of which already play for the Spurs coincidentally. They must have classes on dirty play there in SA because between Oberto, Ginobli and Bowen they sure seem to take a lot of pride in playing that way. It's one thing to flop or try to draw a foul or charge, but they take it to a whole new level.

BTW, good game Suns. SA undefeated in SA until the Suns came to town. Parker or not.

"Barbs takes too many shots and Amare doesn't take enough." I think Barbs is doing exactly what he is being asked to do and that is be aggressive and score. He doesn't need to be set up as he can create his own shot anytime he wants, which isn't the case with every player on the Suns. Amare is hard to figure out. Sometimes he is a monster and sometimes he is a pussy cat. He is either really into a game or not at all it seems. Is he nursing the knees or just sulking. Last night he was left one on one with TD on defense and TD got the better of that. Skinner is a little better on D than Amare, but still can't stop TD one on one for the most part. On offense I think that if you are open Nash will get you the ball no matter who you are. The Spurs made a big point to stop the pick and roll with Amare so the Suns being smarter than the average Suns fan decided to take what SA gave them instead of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

This is my first basketball post in about three weeks because I haven't enjoyed reading this site this year because it's mostly just people complaining about the team nonstop even after a victory against our most heated rival in their house. I think they give the Suns more respect on the Spurs site than we do here which is pretty freaking sad if you ask me.

Solid stuff there. I think the attitude on the boards is a symptom of the season. We all sense there is something wrong and we're all getting frustrated trying to put a finger on it.

Take the Amare thing, for example. I don't want to trade him. I don't think we should. In fact, I think we need to change up the gameplan to make him a focal point again.

But I look at him shooting 9-11 shots a game, I see coach benching him in crunch time, and I hear Nash dropping comments every other day that sound like indirect shots at him. I think it's pretty clear that he's in the doghouse with some -- if not already in the midst of a quiet divorce from us.

[Nodack]

Yeah, I haven't been able to get a handle on the Amare thing. Even when he came into the league and was 100% healthy, he would have monster games followed by games where he looked slow and disinterested. I have tried to figure him out, but it is tough to get a handle on him. I guess the best scenario is when they get him going early and often to keep his head in the game. If he doesn't get it going early he seems to say "screw it" and becomes passive and disinterested. I also think the foul thing gets to him also to where he thinks, "I can't do anything without getting a foul called on me so what's the point?" I think Amare is his worst enemy sometimes and needs to get over himself and do whatever it takes to win instead of sulking (if that's what he is doing sometimes). I thought he did alright against TD last night. He didn't slow him down much, but did manage to guard TD for most of the game one on one without getting into foul trouble until the end, which meant that everybody else on the Spurs was guarded for the most part. I kind of liked that strategy. Even when we double TD hard the whole game he manages to score a bunch and then other people are left open to kill us. One on one coverage at least allowed the Suns to keep the rest of the Spurs in check without too many wide open looks.


I think it's pretty clear that he's in the doghouse with some -- if not already in the midst of a quiet divorce from us.

I don't know if there is a divorce or not, but if Amare is healthy then I think he does need a kick in the ass. We get all over Marion for things he says or his shooting sometimes, but from my viewpoint Marion puts out consistent effort every night whether he is scoring or not. I don't see consistent effort from Amare every night. Since he has had the knee issues I have given him the benefit of the doubt. If he is healthy and just sulking then I have an issue with that.

[misteradiant]

In my view 99.9999999999999% of the trade proposals never happen and us fans have 0% say in who gets traded 100% of the time.

i recently challenged anybody to lay out a posted suns trade proposal that actually happened. so far, not one im or post regarding that. therefore i say 100% of trade proposals never happen. that means they are a colossal waste of time and mostly... well.... i have nothing nice to say. these posters propose them because they live in a fantasy league world instead of living with the truth, which is: this is our team and you should accept it.

[Phoenix219]

And holding Marion to a different standard than Amare for whatever reason can't be helping anything either.

Marion brings more consistant effort and energy but still takes more criticism. At least Marion is known for his defense, he still puts up great scoring and rebounds. I know everyone is all over Amare for not demanding the ball and being the franchise player, but seriously, heres a what-if... what if instead of drafting Amare, we somehow picked up that big defensive presence and resgiend JJ, and let Shawn be the man like he wanted? And actually had plays run for him, pick and rolls, alley oops and what not. Do you think he could have stepped up, upped his basketball IQ and averaged 25/12? Again - he gets his scoring and boards off of garbage points, freelancing and hustling. Anyone think that Marion might have a lot of what-ifs of his own, knowing that he could have been more... once cycles are started its hard to find the mental fortitute to break them. If things had gone in a different direction, who knows where Amare's defense (on a team that stresses that, where he would need it) could have been, or where Marion's shooting percentage and one on one moves could have ended up, if they were on teams that needed that from them the last couple years.

[Nodack]

Word!

[Nodack]

Word to MR not you Phoenix219. :)

What ifs are a waste of time.

Marion has tried to be "the man" before, but I don't think that is who he is. He isn't a one on one Kobe like player.

[MTSunsFan]

As was pointed out earlier, coach's game plan was to let TD try and beat the Suns all by himself. Although he put up some big #'s, the Suns came away w/ the W and the plan seemingly worked. Hard to fault Amare for his D (or lack there of) if you ask me. But I will say this, Amare should be more of a focal point of this team's offense. Coach (or Nash for that matter) has to find a way to get him the ball more often -- end of story...

[Phoenix219]

I'm not disagreeing with you NOW. I'm saying that it seems like he's always been held to a different standard than Amare. You said it yourself - Marion brings intensity throughout while Amare backs himself into corners of listless play, "whats the point", yadda yadda yadda, unless we feed him early and often. Marion brings intensity while never having plays run for him or being fed the ball. How much greater could Marion have been if he had been "that guy" that got fed the ball early and often to get into a zone? Why is Amare held to a different standard? I'm just using your own points here...

[Superbone]

Word to MR not you Phoenix219. :)

What ifs are a waste of time.

Marion has tried to be "the man" before, but I don't think that is who he is. He isn't a one on one Kobe like player.

Hey, crazy man, the quote button is your friend. :)

[Superbone]

As was pointed out earlier, coach's game plan was to let TD try and beat the Suns all by himself. Although he put up some big #'s, the Suns came away w/ the W and the plan seemingly worked. Hard to fault Amare for his D (or lack there of) if you ask me.

Hmm. Sounds familiar...

[Nodack]

I love Marion's game Phoenix. I only have one Suns jersey and it's his. He brings a lot to the table. I just think I know his limitations. He rebounds, blocks shots, plays good defense guarding any position, he can score if left open from anywhere and is a great finisher. I think he might be decent at the pick and roll even if they haven't used him much for that. I think his weaknesses are that he has smaller hands and when he tries to do too much with the ball has a tendency to turn it over. I also don't think he is a guy you throw the ball to and say get us some points like a Kobe. He will surprise people every once in awhile by blowing past his man for a dunk, but that is fairly rare even if I think he could do that more often if he wanted and in fact I think Marion has been more aggressive this year in the one on one department. That is what I mean by being "the man". I just don't think being a Kobe one on one player is Marion's game even if he says he wants to be "the man".


Hey, crazy man, the quote button is your friend.

At least my quote worked. lol

[MTSunsFan]

[QUOTE=MTSunsFan;7741]As was pointed out earlier, coach's game plan was to let TD try and beat the Suns all by himself. Although he put up some big #'s, the Suns came away w/ the W and the plan seemingly worked. Hard to fault Amare for his D (or lack there of) if you ask me./QUOTE]

Hmm. Sounds familiar...

If that was you, sup, I would like to personally thank you for your logical, sound viewpoint...

[Superbone]

At least my quote worked. lol

I don't know what you're talking about, crazy man. ;)

[Superbone]

If that was you, sup, I would like to personally thank you for your logical, sound viewpoint...

No, that was you. What I'm trying to say is that was the Spurs plan against Amare 3 years ago in the playoffs. Let him get his. Limit the rest of the team.

The tables have turned.

[Mori_Chu]

WW, I totally agree with your assessment of Barbs. He could be better, but I am pretty satisfied with how he's playing overall. I hope his 3pt% improves and beyond that I can live with his flaws.

[Phoenix219]

I'm not saying Marion would have turned out as a Lebron or Kobe, i'm just saying that there is a good chance that his development over the years has been hindered, thats all. Theres a difference between being the 1 on 1 iso guy, and being "the man" that gets plays and pick and rolls and what not run for him. Just pointing out that Shawn could probably average what we expect Amare to average, if we had given him all those same opportunities over the years. Maybe even a good reliable long jumper..

[Nodack]

You might be right Phoenix219, I'm just going off the year Amare was out and Marion decided to try to be the man to pick up the slack. He met with limited success even though I don't fault him at all for trying. Marion said before that season that he was going to step it up and pick up the scoring void that Amare left out when he was out for the season. A lot of people gave him grief for not coming true on his promise, but I have nothing but respect for him wanting to take that responsibility on his shoulders.

[ShelC]

Marion cant carry the load offensively night in and night out. Hes a complimentary player. If he could shoot, it may be a different story but he cant shoot the ball consistantly from anywhere. MikeD is right when he says Shawn is the key to our energy and defense. He had it against Utah and when he plays like he did that night, its much more obvious that hes a legit catalyst for our entire system and philosophy. I said that night that when he plays like that hes truly a 16mil a year player. But seeing him play like that makes it that much harder to watch him not playing like that most nights; tho its probably not reasonable to expect that kind of energy from him everynight given everything hes asked to do.

[SpecialSauce]

Truth does not exist in the absence of facts. We can throw opinions around all day long, but the only way to support an opinion is with things that are indisputable (or nearly so). You seem to believe Barbosa is the root of the team's problems. I contend that the facts do not universally support that conclusion.

BTW - I'm well aware that Barbs is a very different player than House and Q, but his role as a scorer is similar. Barbs job is to get open, let distributors find him, and get a shot up quickly if he's still open. Typically, it's easier to get open as a three point shooter than as an inside player. This probably has a lot to do with why he's getting so many shots. Amare is having trouble getting open underneath (for whatever reason), and Barbosa is finding himself reasonably open more often. I don't have the numbers on this, but it makes an intuitive sense.

Trust me, if Barbs is open up top, and Amare is open for the Dunk, Nash will get Amare the ball. But, given an open Barbosa and Amare with a guy or two right up on him in the post, Nash will usually get it to Barbosa. Our offensive system is very much built on "take what the defense gives you." When Barbosa is hitting those threes, it works very well indeed.

Will you sing a different tune if Barbs goes off for 40 on a 3 point killing spree?

Worm,

I think Barbs is the root of the 2nd unit's problems. There is no ball movement when he is in the game, zero. And that wouldn't be a problem if we had a bunch of losers in the game so we needed him doing that anyway (sorta like last year). But this year we have both Hill and Diaw also in the game (and sometimes Amare too), and they should demand the ball in the 2nd unit, and swing it around. He is the root of our problem when Steve sits. No, I will not sing a different tune when (not if) Barbs goes off for 40, because that is inevitable. That's why everybody loves him, because 1 out of every 10 games he will single handedly carry our 2nd unit and nail all those shots he takes every game. It's the law of averages, and it shouldn't come as a surprise when he does go off. But in the playoffs when every game counts, you can't sit there and cross your fingers that he'll be on fire every game....that's why it's more important and better for the team if he stops chucking up shots and gets the 2nd unit flowing better.

[SpecialSauce]

I read: "Worm, with all due respect...don't throw something we could measure or any reasonable data into discussion. I'm blind to any of this. Fact is, I don't like his game, I think he's killing our team, so just agree with me and move on."

Of course you read that, you live in Brazil!

[Phoenix219]

I'd say he did exactly that, his scoring was up, he was in MVP talks, he was the key to our running game and pace, and we were a top team without Amare.

I've said and will continue to say: We have never once had to play without Shawn Marion. We have never lost him to injury or suspension. We have never had to see what this team would be like without his defensive presence/versatility. The year we lost Amare, we didn't miss a beat, and made the WCF.

Everyone is so quick to ship Marion out in trade scenarios but in a real, historical sense, we have NO idea what this would do to our style and pace and system. Since he was drafted we've never had to play without him. We know we can plug and play Skinner, KT, Diaw in the post, even Lil Jake and Scott Williams and Bo Outlaw and whoever else, and not skip a beat. We can lose our bigman to injury for a year and still come out strong. But we have never once seen what playing without Shawn Marion would do to us, and i think it would be worse than anyone expects.

IMO the keys to our success ride on the shoulders of Stevie and Shawn, and they've always stepped up to the plate when needed. Shit, without Shawn stepping up, Game 5 vs SA last year would have been a joke.

In this system, anyone can put the ball in the hole. I just get tired of the Amare "he can but he doesn't" shit while Shawn can and does. We replace Amare with a good defensive big to funnel the fastbreak, everyone else's scoring goes up, and we get defensively better. We continue without Amare improving, and yeah, he can score points, but on this team, who doesn't? We need the defensive play way more than we need the scoring in the pivot and Amare puts down effort on one end only, and not the end that this team needs. We need that big that'll rip down a board and start the fast break with Shawn, Grant, Barbs, etc running it, not an offensive black hole that will dominate with great numbers, but not pass out of the post, not box out for a board, and not keep his counterpart out of the paint.

We talk about needing a big to play next to Amare so he can score a lot, but if we had that big to cover up Amare's weaknesses - couldn't ANY of our guys play next to the defensive big and get just about what we expect Amare to - but with better ball movement?

And its not like the defensive big won't score easy buckets off Nash anyways.

If things had gone differently, and we still had (JJ, TT, any of those draft picks) maybe the team would have gone in a different direction and Amare woudln't be such a liability, but right now, he is uninvolved, defensively weak and injury prone, while Marion is a workhorse thats never been out for an extended injury in his entire career, and puts forth full defensive intensity. We have a small window for success, and as much as i wish Amare could live up to his hype, right now our window is closing up, and both Amare and the ATL pick are losing value quickly.

Amare/Banks and/or Pick for the best defensive big we can get and a 3 point shooter. Time is running out.

[Phoenix219]

If Barbs is killing our second unit, start him, let him score with Nash contolling Barbs tempo, and let Raja's smarts, ball movement and defense come off the bench with Diaw and Skinner or Hill (depending on what rotations coach is playing.) Raja is smarter, and can stretch the defense and move the ball around better than Barbs, while Barbs could benefit off Nash running the point.

[SpecialSauce]

I was completely against Barbs starting in the past, but I'm starting to lean more towards it. I'd prefer if Barbs wasn't playing period, but I guess it would be better if Nash was in and kept the ball out of his hands for the most part. We would definitely need Raja's defense at the end of the game though, so there would have to be some sort of switch the last 4 minutes of the game or so.

[cap]

i do my best sometimes and today i am amazed that this board isn't jumping joyfully that we beat the spurs.
http://indigo.e-puzzle.ru/forum/style_emoticons/dark/jump.gif

[Nodack]

Originally Posted by misteradiant
i do my best sometimes and today i am amazed that this board isn't jumping joyfully that we beat the spurs.


There is only one game that this board would jump for joy for and that would be winning the last game of the finals. Every other game until then is going be a complete disappointment to a lot of people win or lose.

The day the Suns win it all will be a joyous occasion for all here, immediately followed by a fresh round of trade scenarios the next day. LOL

[misteradiant]

You might be right Phoenix219, I'm just going off the year Amare was out and Marion decided to try to be the man to pick up the slack. He met with limited success even though I don't fault him at all for trying. Marion said before that season that he was going to step it up and pick up the scoring void that Amare left out when he was out for the season. A lot of people gave him grief for not coming true on his promise, but I have nothing but respect for him wanting to take that responsibility on his shoulders.

did he meet with limited success? wasn't he 22 and 12 that year? isn't that the best year he ever played, statistically? it isn't that they are not garnett-like numbers, it's that he is overpaid. that cannot be construed as a desire to trade him. he just makes, and is demanding, more money than he is worth. the difference right now isn't so bad, but if he wants three more years at 20 million per, it's so naughty santa won't give whomever pays that a present for the rest of their shamed lives. imagine the hubris!

george bush just snickered, didn't he?

[AlanS]

<<Originally Posted by Nodack
In my view 99.9999999999999% of the trade proposals never happen and us fans have 0% say in who gets traded 100% of the time.>>

i recently challenged anybody to lay out a posted suns trade proposal that actually happened. so far, not one im or post regarding that. therefore i say 100% of trade proposals never happen. that means they are a colossal waste of time and mostly... well.... i have nothing nice to say. these posters propose them because they live in a fantasy league world instead of living with the truth, which is: this is our team and you should accept it.

Ha, I've used the exact same comment that 99% of trade ideas never happen in this and other forums. But it doesn't matter... many fans have an insatiable desire to play GM... you can't stop them from doing it. All you can do is your best to ignore it.

[misteradiant]

but i say 100%! mwoo ha ha ha ha ha!

gimme that tasty trade that went down. a sun traded for ___. just one out of all the years and a million posts that exist at phxsuns.net. come on. prove to me that trade speculation isn't only the playground of fools.

if you can't and you still offer trade scenarios, you are a fool. you are speculating in fantasy. i prefer to deal with the team we have.

[AlanS]

I wouldn't read too much into the Amare/Skinner sub at the end of the game. Classic defense-offense switch. Skinner does a better job on Duncan and I think even Amare would admit that. Besides, D'Antoni subbed Skinner for Diaw the next play down the court, not because Diaw's a better defender, but because Duncan was out and it was a better matchup.

Agreed. As I was watching the last minute, I was thinking, now would be a great time for defensive/offensive substitutions. D'Antoni has never been one to sub like that, but I was pleasantly surprised he did it in this game. This was good coaching, recognizing Skinner's effectiveness on Duncan, and rewarding Skinner for his efforts by putting him in at crunch time.

I didn't take this as a slight to Amare at all. If you're going to get a guy like Skinner for defense, why not put him when a defensive stop is needed?

[misteradiant]

hooray for amare and skinner and coach!

:)

[JediSkywalker]

Can I also just say that I won't be satisfied with just a win when we play on our home court? I fully expect retaliation on Robert Horry. If the Suns and D'Antoni have any balls whatsoever, they WILL retaliate with a nice hard foul on his I Am Legend ass


The best retalliation against Horry and the Spurs is to eliminate them from the playoffs next time. Just a hard foul on him won't accomplish anything of significance.

[Phoenix219]

The more articles i read with Horry quotes the more i want to smash his head in with a brick.

[Nodack]

Ha, I've used the exact same comment that 99% of trade ideas never happen in this and other forums. But it doesn't matter... many fans have an insatiable desire to play GM... you can't stop them from doing it. All you can do is your best to ignore it.

Probably the best advice I have gotten in a long time. I sometimes let those things get to me taking the fun out of things, but one man's poison is another's pleasure.



I'd say he did exactly that, his scoring was up, he was in MVP talks, he was the key to our running game and pace, and we were a top team without Amare.

I've said and will continue to say: We have never once had to play without Shawn Marion. We have never lost him to injury or suspension. We have never had to see what this team would be like without his defensive presence/versatility. The year we lost Amare, we didn't miss a beat, and made the WCF.


You are right Shawn did have a real good year that year, it just wasn't up to phxsuns.net standards on being "the man" I guess. I think people expected Shawn to average 30 pts. a game or he wasn't living up to his promise. Kind of silly.

Shawn has missed a few games. I can't remember our record without him, but I don't think it was good though. I do think Shawn is a huge piece of the Suns pie. The iso one on one offensive player he isn't. He's not a great shooter, but decent. He won't give you very many assists. He will give you tons of just about everything else and bring it almost every night.


We replace Amare with a good defensive big to funnel the fastbreak, everyone else's scoring goes up, and we get defensively better. We continue without Amare improving, and yeah, he can score points, but on this team, who doesn't? We need the defensive play way more than we need the scoring in the pivot

You weren't around here a few years back before we got Amare when the cry was "FIX THE PAINT!!!" on every other post and from one guy Uncle Gene especially I think. Teams packed the paint and we had to live by the jump shot every night. Having a low post threat like Amare was hailed as a major victory for the Suns and by all of the people here at phxsuns.net. Let's not forget what he brings to the table when he is "on". Sure we shoot a lot of jumpers now, but those jumpers are a lot more wide open when there is a low post threat.

Jed was asking whether the Suns are getting a divorce from Amare or not earlier since they aren't getting him the ball and I don't think I answered him very well. I wish I was a betazoid and could read minds to find out what is up with Amare, but I can't. Is he passive, pissed off, hurt, bored, lazy or are they intentionally not getting him the ball? Are defenses keying off Amare drawing a double or triple team when he touches the ball or denying him the ball all together? Is he just not getting in good position to receive a pass? Worried about fouls?I don't know, maybe some of all of it, who knows?

Suns getting a divorce from Amare? Once again we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, so everything is speculation unless someone talks, which they aren't.

All we really know is that Amare isn't dominating games like we would all want him to and isn't very good at post defense at this time. Amare has had some great offensive games recently so we know it's there as with Diaw unless the big games made the knees sore. Once again speculation without any facts so who knows?

I guess that's why they play the games and we watch the games. Who knows what will happen or which players are going to show up. It's a long season and it feels like it's already been long when we are still early on in the season.

[Phoenix219]

Lol, i remember fix the paint. I think i was a little quieter back then, didn't post that much. I've been here longer than you think. I've been around since azcentral/cubby days, and made the switch over when everyone else did. i even remember cubby being able to post on these boards at the beginning. hah.

I would again argue that the paint is NOT fixed, until we have a defensive presence IN the paint. A ton of Suns can score from the area of the paint, but who can keep the other team OUT of it?

[FurlanFufi]

Of course you read that, you live in Brazil!

That never stopped me from criticizing Brazilian players. That's one of the reasons I hate when I read someone criticizing Doris for being French, and not for being a lazy ass and clearly out of shape.

I don't like the way Barbs i playing right now, and it's not because he's jacking up a lot of shots. He just seems to emulate Hil's game, popping and shooting, when he's better at getting past his defender or shooting 3's in a good %. He's not doing any of this right now. If you read the game post, there it is, what I just said.

And he could be a better distributor, if he's asked, but I think Diaw should be doing it.
As a matter of fact, I think Diaw should be doing ANYTHING more than he's already.

[AlanS]

But then there's that pesky issue of Amare being frozen out of the offense. It's not as though he's not producing when he's getting the ball. He makes his shots, he gets fouled, and he still shoots at a high percentage when he has the chance.

One item that doesn't get much attention is Steve's shooting slump. These are Nash's numbers in 4 of the last 5 games:
• Min - 5/14 (7 pt loss)
• Mia - 4/13 (4pt loss)
• NO - 4/12 (3pt loss)
• SA - 3/8 (5pt win)

That's 34% shooting from a two-time MVP. (Hmmm... if Amare or Shawn or Barbosa or anybody shot 34% in 4 of 5 games, people would be demanding those guys' heads on a platter. If Nash had just hit 45-48% in those games, those three losses could easily have been wins.)

The thing is, Steve's poor shooting does more than just hurt the team by losing his scoring. When Nash is missing shots, it's easier to defend Amare when they try to run two-man plays: teams know they can overplay on guarding Amare, and not worry about Nash making them pay for it. In one game - was it the Miami game? - Steve missed a bunch of jumpers on picks or screens involving Amare.

Meanwhile, in the Spurs game, the Suns announcers made the point that the Spurs were doing a good job of controlling Nash on pick and rolls. It's easy to say, "We'll make Nash a scorer and see if he'll beat us", when Steve is shooting blanks.

[Nodack]

I would again argue that the paint is NOT fixed, until we have a defensive presence IN the paint. A ton of Suns can score from the area of the paint, but who can keep the other team OUT of it?

I'll give you that. The paint is definitely not fixed right now. Amare is a concern of mine, especially on defense. Nobody stops Tim Duncan one on one so I certainly wasn't expecting Amare to stop TD though. I think Amare when healthy and confident is almost impossible to stop in the post and although a few Suns can penetrate the post Amare is the guy who can dominate the post. Amare isn't a dominating presence in the post this year except for a couple of glimpses and a few good games.

The bottom line is that although Amare isn't dominating like he used to, i'm not going to give up on him yet. This season just started and it's far to early to start throwing guys under the bus.


I don't like the way Barbs i playing right now, and it's not because he's jacking up a lot of shots. He just seems to emulate Hil's game, popping and shooting, when he's better at getting past his defender or shooting 3's in a good %. He's not doing any of this right now. If you read the game post, there it is, what I just said.


I think either Barbosa is a little banged up like it's his elbow again or he is just in a little shooting funk. He was missing all the shots not just the mid range ones. I love the fact that Barbosa has added the mid range shot to his arsenal. I think it will only help his game. Barbosa is fine. I'm not worried in the slightest bit about him.


One item that doesn't get much attention is Steve's shooting slump. These are Nash's numbers in 4 of the last 5 games:

It's no secret that Nash is banged up right now in about four places and is having an effect on his shooting. I say it's all just part of the game and he will have to play through it because Nash is the engine that makes the Suns train go. He still has to shoot to keep them honest as much as possible so the Suns will just have to suck it up and live with the results until Nash heals.

[JustWinBaby]

One item that doesn't get much attention is Steve's shooting slump. These are Nash's numbers in 4 of the last 5 games:
• Min - 5/14 (7 pt loss)
• Mia - 4/13 (4pt loss)
• NO - 4/12 (3pt loss)
• SA - 3/8 (5pt win)

That's 34% shooting from a two-time MVP. (Hmmm... if Amare or Shawn or Barbosa or anybody shot 34% in 4 of 5 games, people would be demanding those guys' heads on a platter. If Nash had just hit 45-48% in those games, those three losses could easily have been wins.)

The thing is, Steve's poor shooting does more than just hurt the team by losing his scoring. When Nash is missing shots, it's easier to defend Amare when they try to run two-man plays: teams know they can overplay on guarding Amare, and not worry about Nash making them pay for it. In one game - was it the Miami game? - Steve missed a bunch of jumpers on picks or screens involving Amare.

Meanwhile, in the Spurs game, the Suns announcers made the point that the Spurs were doing a good job of controlling Nash on pick and rolls. It's easy to say, "We'll make Nash a scorer and see if he'll beat us", when Steve is shooting blanks.

Alan - how dare you call out Nash -

He is like Mr perfect in many peoples eyes and often he is. The numbers you quote speak volumes. He quite frankly has seemed listless himself at times. He has had a number of large turnover games this season. However that was not the issue in those four defeats. In those four games he had 46 assists with 11 turnovers, which is outstanding.

The real issue we need to fix is rebounding. This has been a problem forever and we have been worse than ever recently.

Out Rebounded as follows:

Min 55 to 33
Mia 46 to 29
NO 49 to 41
SA 49 to 38

Tot 199 to 141

It is amazing that we were even competitive in any of these games. This is not new and whenever I review these STATS I am amazed how poor we are at rebounding and how many games we win in spite of ourselves.

Rebounding generally comes from positioning and effort, we generally lack both. We seem to always be more interested in getting a quick bucket off a fast break rather than securing the rebound.

We have to be the worst in the league on the point differential regarding 2nd chance points. This also has to improve our opponents shooting percentage as well, in that we generally are out of position if we go after the rebound and don't get it or 4 of our guys are on their way to the offensive end.

This is the main reason I get so pissed at Boris. He is a horrible rebounder! Don't give me the crap he is too small, he just does not hustle for rebounds. He surely is capable of being a very good rebounder. He is quick, agile and reportedly has the best vertical on the team.

While Boris had a very good game against the Spurs, I still ain't convinced. I have seen the one good game followed by 6 or 7 poor games from him all too often. If we are to move anyone on this roster he has to be at the top of the list, that is if there are any takers. We need another consistent rebounder. That said everyone needs to chip in. Hell if Nash can get 8 Rebounds these other guys should be up to the task as well. Yeah listen up ( Bell, Barbosa, Boris ) Amare can get better but I really don't see him as the real problem. It is more of a team issue. Marion, Hill and Skinner do a very good job most nights.

Until we fix our rebounding - there will be no Banners hanging in US Airways Center.

[JackArse]

interesting stuff going thru those posts. had a couple of comments which, are mostly just opinion.

barbosa shooting woes are just that, they're woes, he'll have to shoot himself out of the slump. barbosa is needed for those shots, this offense is an outside> in offense. barbosa and whoever starts hitting outside shots, that finally opens up the lanes for amare to do what he needs.

amare comes very slowly off of the picks now. if you notice the last couple of years, he and marion would just slide the pick so there was never truly a pick to get open. now they both sit there and wait which allows the defender to catch up. a couple of games ago, i finally saw marion slip the pick and got a massively easy dunk. i'm not sure why they are just sitting there waiting now, but they need to be sliding those. also, one of the things that amare used to do was play with hsi back to the basket, and use a variety of spin moves and such to get a step. now he steps like 2-3 stesp away from the defender and faces him, which right now, he just doesn't have the explosiveness to do that. or he'll hit that outside shot, which is fine, that dunk is going to bring more energy than hitting that 18 ftr.

marion. enigma. he does so many little things, but still can't be a ball handler. if i remember correctly this was a knock on him even in college, he played out of the system. think of him as an athletic, much more gifted version of kurt rambis. he does all the little dirty things that need to be done, but he's not someone your going to necessarily rely on to deliver on his own.

btw, kurt rambis has one of the highest shooting percentages in the playoffs. ever.

this win was nice, we were definitely not playing up to par, and it seemed the the spurs were playing fairly well for not having TP in there.

this is the ONLY game that i have ever respected manu, i hate him, but i actually noticed very little flopping or otherwise that we'd normally get outta him.

go suns!

[Nodack]

one of the things that amare used to do was play with hsi back to the basket, and use a variety of spin moves and such to get a step. now he steps like 2-3 stesp away from the defender and faces him, which right now, he just doesn't have the explosiveness to do that. or he'll hit that outside shot, which is fine, that dunk is going to bring more energy than hitting that 18 ftr.

He did play with his back to the basket to start the season and used a variety of spin moves that led to defenders waiting to pick up the offensive fouls as he spun into them. He has all but deserted that now and it's kind of sad. Maybe we will see a return of that at some point, but I think he stopped doing it because he picked up so many fouls.

[AlanS]

Nash did have fine passing games in those losses, so it would be unfair to say he was of no value in those games. But it is true: if Nash shoots at the FG% we expect him to shoot, then the Miami and NO games would have been wins, and maybe the Minny game. When you do the math, this is quite clear.

One thing about the Suns rebounding: I try (and don't always succeed) in making the point about the difference between a weakness and a problem. For example: the Suns have had a weak-rebounding team since the start of the D'Antoni era. It's a weakness. But it hasn't been a problem because the Suns have been so efficient offensively, they gain more on the scoreboard with their outstanding offense, than they lose with their lousy rebounding.

All of this works as long as the Suns are an outstanding offensive team. The problem we have now is, the Suns are not the offensive juggernaut that we've come to expect. For example, Steve Nash, a 2-time MVP talent, is shooting just 34% from the field in 4 of his last 5 games. But he is one of several Suns who have struggled offensively. So now, their weakness at rebounding is a problem.

So where does that leave us? Well, at this point, it's much more likely that Steve will get his shooting touch back, then it is that the Suns will start rebounding better. Or at least we hope so... I can't see the Suns becoming a much better rebounding team without different talent.

PS: I can certainly understand why Steve has been upset the past few games. He's one of the smallest guys on the court, he handles the ball on offense some 60-70% of the time, and the stated strategy of many opposing teams is to play him physical, so they can wear him out. Despite all of that, he's played at an All-Star level, sometimes carrying the team on his shoulders.

And now, when Steve is struggling (and probably playing hurt), he's looking for his teammates to step up and cover his back... and it's not happening, at least on a consistent basis. Anybody would be unhappy with that.

[Superbone]

this is the ONLY game that i have ever respected manu, i hate him, but i actually noticed very little flopping or otherwise that we'd normally get outta him.

Oberto and Horry picked up the slack quite well.

[JackArse]

superbone, aye, tis to be expected. was just surprised at how he for the most part just played straight up basketball.

[INFORMER]

You, know, I can't ever remember Steve Nash going through a shooting slump in his second tenure with the Suns. I remember in the Clipper series in 2006, he went 2-3 games just shooting blanks. Then there was that four game break between Games 6 and 7, and he came back in Game 7 good as new. I think it was his back that was bothering him. I'm not one to take Steve Nash to task, and I believe his latest shooting woes are due to injury.

[MTSunsFan]

You, know, I can't ever remember Steve Nash going through a shooting slump in his second tenure with the Suns. I remember in the Clipper series in 2006, he went 2-3 games just shooting blanks. Then there was that four game break between Games 6 and 7, and he came back in Game 7 good as new. I think it was his back that was bothering him. I'm not one to take Steve Nash to task, and I believe his latest shooting woes are due to injury.

Me either, INF. But he's making it more & more difficult when he's calling out teammates in the media but @ the same time hoisting up brick after brick...

[Nodack]

Maybe he is calling out team members for lack of effort, which has nothing to do with shooting %.

[Shabazz]

Maybe he is calling out team members for lack of effort, which has nothing to do with shooting %.

Yep. Every criticism he's had of the team so far has to do with passive and inconsistent play.

A guy could shoot 0-10, but if he's busting his ass on both ends I don't think Nash would have a problem.

[AlanS]

Yep. Every criticism he's had of the team so far has to do with passive and inconsistent play.

A guy could shoot 0-10, but if he's busting his ass on both ends I don't think Nash would have a problem.

It IS hard to be critical of a player when he's playing hard and busting his butt. But the thing is, playing hard, in and of itself, does not win games. As Walton says, "Don't confuse activity with achievement."

If a guys shoots 0-10 and busts his ass, but the team loses because said guy shoots his team out of the game, that is a problem, and it's fair to acknowledge it. In the end, productivity rules.

Myself, I don't point out Steve's poor shooting to say, "Steve sucks." But I am saying, if people are trying to understand why the Suns have played poorly lately, his shooting slump is a factor, and it all can't be dumped on (take your pick) Amare, Diaw, LB, D'Antoni, etc.

[Shabazz]

Yep. Every criticism he's had of the team so far has to do with passive and inconsistent play.

A guy could shoot 0-10, but if he's busting his ass on both ends I don't think Nash would have a problem.

It IS hard to be critical of a player when he's playing hard and busting his butt. But the thing is, playing hard, in and of itself, does not win games. As Walton says, "Don't confuse activity with achievement."

If a guys shoots 0-10 and busts his ass, but the team loses because said guy shoots his team out of the game, that is a problem, and it's fair to acknowledge it. In the end, productivity rules.

Myself, I don't point out Steve's poor shooting to say, "Steve sucks." But I am saying, if people are trying to understand why the Suns have played poorly lately, his shooting slump is a factor, and it all can't be dumped on (take your pick) Amare, Diaw, LB, D'Antoni, etc.

Completely agree on all counts. His slump has been affecting our play and a guy shooting 0-10 doesn't help matters.

We were just talking about what Stevie has been publicly critical of, and I think it has been players' efforts and not their shooting percentages.

[ShelC]

Anyone whos critical of Stevie is an asshat. Its not blind homerism or favoritism to defend Stevie. But anyone whos watched this team and knows what he means to it, knows that as long as hes out there hes doing whatever he can to help us win the game. And thats whether he shoots 0-10 or 10-10. His defense has always been the weak-link but this is nothing new. We've won in spite of it for the past 3 years, so attacking him now on it is weak. And while hes not a great 1on1 defender, hes a terrific team defender who tries to funnel his guy into the help as much as possible.

[INFORMER]

I basically feel the same way Shel. I'm not saying he's perfect, or that he never does anything wrong, but for me, Steve Nash pratically has a free pass.

[Shabazz]

Anyone whos critical of Stevie is an asshat. Its not blind homerism or favoritism to defend Stevie. But anyone whos watched this team and knows what he means to it, knows that as long as hes out there hes doing whatever he can to help us win the game. And thats whether he shoots 0-10 or 10-10. His defense has always been the weak-link but this is nothing new. We've won in spite of it for the past 3 years, so attacking him now on it is weak. And while hes not a great 1on1 defender, hes a terrific team defender who tries to funnel his guy into the help as much as possible.

I agree with this too. I'm as big a Nash fan as you'll find. But there's a difference between being critical of Nash and pointing out that his shooting woes affect the production of the team.

It's well known that we go as Nash goes. When he plays well we'll win more often than not, and in the few games where he has an off night we have a much higher chance of losing. It's not a criticism, just a reality. Same goes for any team and its star player.

[Nodack]

And when Nash is hurting and not playing well, that's when he needs his team mates to step up and pick up the slack.