Sunday's News: A sh*tload of broken records and Nash is looking for super glue.....

[SwingMan]

Suns can't get past Hornets (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1215sunsonline1216.html)

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Hornets guard Chris Paul stays close to Suns guard Steve Nash in the first half in New Orleans on Saturday.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 16, 2007 12:00 AM

NEW ORLEANS - The Suns sat in the New Orleans Arena visitors locker room, lamenting the start and the end of a 101-98 loss to New Orleans that sends them to San Antonio with three losses in their past four games.

They lost the game with a listless look defensively in the first half. They did not win it when Shawn Marion's go-ahead runner from 10 feet traveled about 9 feet with two seconds to go and Phoenix down 99-98, leaving the Suns winless in the five games they have failed to reach 100 points.

Marion said the air ball came because he did not have a feel of the game on his 11th shot. Steve Nash said he should have held the ball longer before kicking it out to Raja Bell when his defender came down on Nash's crossing move. Bell said he should have taken his three-point shot instead of kicking it to the corner for Marion and giving him one option.
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Everyone knew what mattered more is that they let a Hornets team that was missing Peja Stojakovic lead by as much as 16 and score 59 in the first half because the Suns did not bring it defensively.

Nash is beyond frustrated.

He could see it from the tipoff with teammates not in defensive stances and playing without intensity and concentration in the first game of a three-game road trip that was supposed to be a litmus test.

"Nothing surprises me anymore," Nash said. "We're so consistently inconsistent that I'm not surprised. It's very, very disappointing.

"I wish I could come up with a way to make sure each guy is ready to play. What do you do? Have an interview with each guy before each game to make sure he understands?"

The first-half effort, which put Phoenix down 59-46, only looked worse when Phoenix did play disciplined to start the third quarter. A 34-21 quarter pulled Phoenix even entering the fourth quarter. Phoenix still had to rally from Chris Paul forcing New Orleans ahead 99-92 with 3:22 to go. Phoenix came up with five stops in a row to set up the Marion chance. The Suns had to foul and Paul hit two free throws with two-tenths of a second left to make it 101-98 and leave no chance for an actual tying shot.

"That's a shot I hit on a regular basis," Marion said. "I didn't have a feel. We shouldn't even been in that situation. I'm at a loss for words. I'm zoned out."

The first half was a battle of wills with Phoenix's mantra of getting up shots in seven seconds or less going against New Orleans' attempts to drain the shot clock to seven seconds or less to slow the game. The Suns had early leads but missed five shots in the lane before New Orleans got going and piled on by making eight of its first 11 threes.

"When we play with energy defensively, we're one of the best defensive teams," Nash said. "When we don't, which is quite frequently, we're one of the worst."

New Orleans wound up shooting 41 percent but made 12 threes and held Nash, Marion and Amaré Stoudemire to 11 points in the first half.

"When you don't have energy defensively, it carries over to offense," Bell said. "It's hard to turn it up on the other end when it's short on the other."

Teammate Grant Hill said the Suns have a pattern of getting "complacent."

"It's a recurring theme," coach Mike D'Antoni said.

Report

Cheers

Leandro Barbosa made 8 of 12 shots and helped Phoenix get back into the game in the third quarter.

Jeers

Shawn Marion had a clear shot to win it, and the Suns made life difficult on themselves with a listless first half.

Player of the game

New Orleans' Chris Paul outdueled his point-guard idol Steve Nash with 21 points and 10 assists.

View from press row

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni often draws the ire of fans in opponents' arenas by standing in front of fans, blocking their views of the game. D'Antoni actually has been sitting more this season as part of an effort to not get so wound up. Of course, when the Suns are playing from behind like Saturday, he's up. Some Hornets fans from a few rows back got on him about it. "If I stand here, he can't see and he pays a lot of money," D'Antoni told the fans, showing the alternative spot in front of a front-row fan.

- Paul Coro

[SwingMan]

Scott: Suns' style slows Hornets (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1215sunsnb1216.html)

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Hornets coach and former ASU guard Byron Scott was glad to hear of the Sun Devils' victory over Xavier on Saturday.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 15, 2007 10:07 PM
NEW ORLEANS - In the fourth year of the Suns current system, Phoenix still forces other teams to change what they do.

New Orleans coach Byron Scott said there is no other team that makes him emphasize the need to slow the tempo and play half-court basketball more than Phoenix. He said his team is no more accustomed to Phoenix's ways but understands them better.

"As much as we like to run our team and for Chris (Paul) to push the ball, sometimes you've got to be smart when you're playing a team that does it better than you," Scott said.
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Hornets power forward David West said the addition of Grant Hill made the Suns more problematic with another tough one-on-one matchup.

"They're able to impose their will and teams get tricked into playing their style of basketball and fall short," West said.

You could see New Orleans' intent to avoid that Saturday with a slow-down game plan to feed the ball to West and center Tyson Chandler in the posts.

"I've watched them for so many years play for 48 minutes at the same tempo," Scott said. "They could be up two points with three minutes left or six points and they're still trying to push it."

Scott said the Suns lack the post-up players that his "Showtime" Lakers had, but Phoenix attacks continuously with pick-and-rolls and Steve Nash "seems to get them a good shot every time down the floor."

When Paul had a draft workout for New Orleans, Paul told Scott that his favorite players were Nash and Isiah Thomas.

"Chris does a pretty good job of emulating Steve, but the one thing he does a little better is he keeps his dribble," Scott said. "You never really see him get caught in a double team. You never see him picking up his dribble and getting trapped."

Devil from afar

Scott, a former Arizona State star, enjoyed hearing that the ASU men's basketball team upset No. 17 Xavier on Saturday but mostly so he could needle West, a Xavier product.

"I'm going to go in there and brag now," Scott said.

West had a preemptive strike: "He doesn't have too much to say. We're 8-2 and we should still be in the Top 25."

Scott has another tie with Phoenix now that fellow Inglewood, Calif., native Jay Humphries joined the Suns' coaching staff this year. They grew up two blocks from each other in a neighborhood of athletes who played football at the park and basketball at a junior high.

Reaching out

The Suns showed support for New Orleans' recovery by inviting 20 teens from a homeless shelter to attend Saturday's shootaround and game.

This was heavenly for Shedrach Davis, 19, a New Orleans native who favors the Suns.

Showing autographs on his shirt, he recited how they rank: "Amaré Stoudemire, he's No. 2. Steve Nash, he's No. 1. Shawn Marion is No. 3. And last but not least, Leandro Barbosa."

[JediSkywalker]

Is Nash pointing at Amare when he was calling out the team, or was it both Amare and Shawn? Both had poor games. They were not in positions so Nash could not dish out to them. Nash himself was too injured to make some shots, and he had to depend on assists but there were not many that were in position. Amare was not even finishing layups. This team needs Amare to give 100 percent every time. Last season he did that. This year has been on for one game, off for another. Grant and Raja both had decent, if not spectacular games, so they did their parts.

Diaw and LB played well. Diaw with the assists and LB with his shooting. Unfortunately when the bench plays well, the starters don't and vice a versa.

[wpmiller42]

Amare does look frustrated out there. I'm not sure what the problem is, but it would be nice if whatever is going on could be worked out.

On the bright side, winning the next two against san antonio and dallas, and there should be NO EXCUSE not to play with energy against those two, would make this a pretty successful road trip.

[Wormwood]

This team is dysfunctional right now in so many ways.

- Our PF doesn't want to play PF, or in Phoenix for that matter

- Our starting C doesn't really know how to play post defense, and doesn't want to play C anyway.

- Our bench can't score, and doesn't mesh well with the starting C.

- We've got 13 million in wasted cap space right now preventing us from having any sort of bench. Boris, Marcus, I'm looking at you....

- Defensively, we're schizophrenic. Bell, Marion, and Skinner are very good defensively. Barbosa is OK. The rest? Ugh. Only Nash has any sort of excuse, and it's mostly a lack of lateral quickness and his scrawny build.

- Effort. Of all the guys out there, only Nash, Bell, Skinner, Hill, and (maybe) Barbosa seem to be bringing it every night. Diaw, Amare, and Shawn seem disinterested at times. Amare only seems to have it about 1 out of 3 nights, SHawn's a 60-40 affair, and Diaw is only bringing his A game about once every 4 or 5 games.

- I've been saying this for months, but there needs to be some sort of drastic change. Things are about as f***** up right now as a football bat. WHether it's a philosophy change and bringing in another center to make us more of a halfcourt team, or if it's a wholesale slaughter that sends Amare and Shawn packing, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that this team does not have what it takes to seriously contend.

If we are not contenders, then you have to either make a trade and hope it elevates you back into contender status, or you have to say "screw this" and re-build. Right now, with Seattle holding two of our draft picks and making a re-building effort through the draft impossible,, I believe we're looking at a 5 year slide into oblivion, much like Portland and Sacto suffered after about 1999-2000.

[wpmiller42]

WW, maybe it doesn't have to be so drastic as trades and such. Like you said, Amare and Shawn aren't particularly fond of playing C and PF, respectively.

Starting Skinner at C would solve this problem, and having Grant come off the bench would be great. Plus, at the end of a close game, I'm sure if we want Grant out there with Amare and Shawn, no one is going to care what "position" they have to play then.

I hope that really isn't the root of the problem, because I think the traditional positions in this system don't really carry alot of weight.

[Wormwood]

WW, maybe it doesn't have to be so drastic as trades and such. Like you said, Amare and Shawn aren't particularly fond of playing C and PF, respectively.

Starting Skinner at C would solve this problem, and having Grant come off the bench would be great. Plus, at the end of a close game, I'm sure if we want Grant out there with Amare and Shawn, no one is going to care what "position" they have to play then.

I hope that really isn't the root of the problem, because I think the traditional positions in this system don't really carry alot of weight.


If we start Skinner, it means we need one more true center coming off the bench. And no, I don't want Marks to see the light of day. He makes Amare look like Dikembe Mutombo in his prime.

I did suggest starting SKinner in another thread, so we are thinking somewhat along the same lines though.


As a side note, anyone notice yahoo box scores now include a +/- stat? Cool.....

[wpmiller42]

You know, if Boris can play even serviceably like he showed last night, he can be that extra center off the bench.

His defense on opposing centers was great when he won most improved, and maybe if he doesn't have to play with Amare as much, it will help him out.

[AlanS]

Just a couple of comments:

- When Steve says guys are not doing what they should, does he include himself? Look at his shooting recently:
• 4/12 FG vs NOH; 3pt loss
• 5/14 vs Minnesota, a 7 pt loss that was closer than the score indicates.
• 4/13 vs Miami; a 4pt loss
> That's a combined 33% FG.

Nash is in a shooting slump. If he was shooting the way we expect, those would be wins. If he continues to shoot 33% from the field, as he did in those games, the Suns don't have a chance.

- RE: Defense: it didn't help that Nash couldn't guard Paul, but then, who can? One of the Hornets announcers made the point that, with a forward having to guard Paul, it meant less big bodies under the basket to grab defensive rebounds. The Hornets had 13 offensive rebounds,and 2nd chance points really helped them out.

- My perception is that Nash AND Stoudemire are both playing hurt, and that is a real real problem. Nash's problems, I talked about. Regarding Amare: he hasn't reached 20 pts in any of the last 4 games, nor has he hit double figures in rebounds in the last 4 games.

Those 2 are the key guys on this team. They were first team All-NBA last season. But they have been just good, not dominant, in the last few games. Interestingly enough, all of the recent losses were winnable games, which shows that the Suns have talent beyond those two. But when your go-to guys can't get it going, that's a recipe for losses, fan frustration, and player frustration as well.

[JediSkywalker]

I think Skinner is better coming off the bench, than as a starter. This is just a gut feeling. I believe the Suns need to get a starting center, through a trade, before this season is lost. It does not have to be an all pro; just an above average that can play that position confidently. The Suns cannot afford to have two disinterested starters on the team (Amare and Shawn). Let Amare and Shawn play their natural positions and see if that works.

If a trade for a center is not possible, here is a crazy thought- play Diaw at the starting center, Amare at PF, Shawn at SF. Let Hill, LB, Skinner come off the bench. That will be a very strong bench. The Suns still need to fill small gaps with guys like Banks, DJ (please- no Marks or Pike!). On paper that may look like a weaker starting lineup, given Diaw's performance last two years, but it may make the overall team stronger. Hill can still play major minutes, like he is, as a starter. I am of course hoping that the starting position may motivate Diaw to perform at a higher level, and since Amare will be playing his favorite position, there may be less tension between them.

[AlanS]

Skinner is great coming off the bench. He can play with a lot energy and agressiveness because he knows that, since he's playing short minutes, there's no fear of getting tired or fouling out. But as a starter... I don't know how well he could handle starter minutes.

[JediSkywalker]

Just a couple of comments:

- When Steve says guys are not doing what they should, does he include himself? Look at his shooting recently:
• 4/12 FG vs NOH; 3pt loss
• 5/14 vs Minnesota, a 7 pt loss that was closer than the score indicates.
• 4/13 vs Miami; a 4pt loss
> That's a combined 33% FG.

Nash is in a shooting slump. If he was shooting the way we expect, those would be wins. If he continues to shoot 33% from the field, as he did in those games, the Suns don't have a chance.
- RE: Defense: it didn't help that Nash couldn't guard Paul, but then, who can? One of the Hornets announcers made the point that, with a forward having to guard Paul, it meant less big bodies under the basket to grab defensive rebounds. The Hornets had 13 offensive rebounds,and 2nd chance points really helped them out.

- My perception is that Nash AND Stoudemire are both playing hurt, and that is a real real problem. Nash's problems, I talked about. Regarding Amare: he hasn't reached 20 pts in any of the last 4 games, nor has he hit double figures in rebounds in the last 4 games.

Those 2 are the key guys on this team. They were first team All-NBA last season. But they have been just good, not dominant, in the last few games. Interestingly enough, all of the recent losses were winnable games, which shows that the Suns have talent beyond those two. But when your go-to guys can't get it going, that's a recipe for losses, fan frustration, and player frustration as well.

I think Nash is talking about the EFFORT, not the NUMBERS. Even when Nash has poor numbers, it is obvious that he gives his best effort every game, every quarter. So do Grant Hill and Raja Bell. There are players on this team that don't do that. I would place Amare, Marion, Diaw and even LB this year (except for last night's game) in that bracket. I think Nash is targetting Amare and Shawn because both have a tendency to disappear in some games (I am thinking he is writing off Diaw). When guys put in the effort, the numbers usually come in some form.

For Nash to be effective as a distributor the whole team needs to be performing. If one of them is off key, his music does not play. I think that's what is happening and that's what is frustrating him. When he is healthy, he makes up for it by taking the shots himself, and making key baskets. It appears he is too banged up to be able to do that, so he really has to rely on his distributing skills right now.

[JediSkywalker]

Here are some possible trade scenarios for the Suns:

1. Atlanta pick to Denver for Marcus Camby (he is old, but still effective for one or two years- same as the Suns window). Denver needs a draft pick.

2.Send Amare to Memphis and get Pau Gasol, thus protecting the Atlanta pick.

3.Send Atlanta pick and Banks to Memphis, for Pau Gasol.

4.Banks and Atl pick to Indiana for J.O'neal.

5.STAT to Indiana for J.O'neal

Would any of these work?

I don't believe the Atlanta pick will be a lottery pick, so it is expendable.

[y2jjedipimp]

[QUOTE=Nashfan_Vash;7366]

If a trade for a center is not possible, here is a crazy thought- play Diaw at the starting center, Amare at PF, Shawn at SF. Let Hill, LB, Skinner come off the bench. QUOTE]


i think that is an awesome idea. The starting lineup we have now just isnt getting better. we need energy guys off the bench. Sounds crazy but Tucker and DJ had great chemistry this summer and i think they should be on the floor together more a few mins a game and increase or decrease based on how they are playing.

I dunno. im just looking for answers like the rest of you. WE need a change. it probably isnt going to happen through a trade. It just seems were running into the ground.

[SpecialSauce]

Vash, there's absolutely no way anybody is gonna take Banks and the ATL pick in a trade for their best player. And there's no way our ATL pick lands us someone like Marcus Camby. You're smoking something my friend

[AlanS]

I want to speak at length about this "lack of urgency on defense" issue that people - such as Nash - are talking about a lot recently.

The fact is, this is nothing new. Except for the early part of 05/06, the Suns have lacked a sense of urgency on defense during almost all of the Nash era. The thing is, the Suns have been a great offensive team - not just good, but the best in the NBA - for 3 straight seasons. And the energy on defense has never needed to be more than average.

I actually have a name for those times when the Suns play stretches of soft defense - I dubbed it "trade basket mode" back in 04/05. It meant that the Suns went thru periods in games where they exchanged scores with the other team, secure in the knowledge that their superior fire-power would enable them to keep scoring, while the opposition couldn't.

Basically, the Suns have been a team that plays defense in spurts. They've never played defense 48 minutes a game, because (a) they didn't have to; and (b) their small ball line-up was going to defensively challenged anyway, especially on the defensive glass.

The problem with this season is, the offense hasn't been clicking on all cylinders. The 3PT shooting has been especially erratic. Meanwhile, various guys at various times have had problems hitting shots.

When everybody on the Suns is right, you have situations like we saw at the start of their recent road trip, where their offense was simply spectacular. But when Nash is going thru periods where he shoots 33% in 3 out of 4 games, or Amare goes thru a 4 game stretch averaging under 18 pts and 8 rebounds a game - those are times when the offense isn't good enough to win it all, by its lonesome. (I think both Nash and Amare are playing hurt, myself. Or at least I hope so - if this is how they're gonna play until the end of the season, the Suns' playoff hopes are non-existent.)

So now the Suns are in a situation where they NEED to play good defense not just in spurts, but all 48 minutes. Here's the question: can they do it? Can this team, with the personnel it has, sustain a strong defensive effort? The answer is, we don't know. The Suns are small, and they have several guys who are mediocre defensively (Nash being the prime case). I don't know if this team can all of sudden become more than an average defensive team... do they have the attitude to play that way? Do they have the talent to play that way? Do they have the conditioning to play that way?... for 48 minutes a game. We don't know.

What is more likely to me is that the Suns will continue to play close, but not winning basketball, until everybody gets right. Fans will moan, players will grumble, and Kerr will start working the phones to see what's out there. This is where we are now.

If I was Steve Kerr, I would probably wait until my guys get healthy, and THEN see how they play, before pulling the trigger on something. If everybody can get right, and but with the benefit of more effort on defense, the Suns could wind up the better for it. But I get the feeling that panic mode is setting in. Is some kind of change coming next? We'll see.

[AlanS]

I think Nash is talking about the EFFORT, not the NUMBERS.

Understood, but in the case of Nash, I'm talking about numbers AND effort. His shooting numbers ARE horrid in the past few game (the kind of numbers that have Banks sitting on the bench), and they explain why the Suns are losing as much as any defensive lapses are. I'm not saying to bench Nash or trade him or anything like that... I think he's playing hurt... but it's a fact, his poor shooting is a problem.

Meanwhile, he is enough of a liability on defense that we have to use a forward to guard PGs like Paul or Tony Parker - which means we become even more vulnerable on the boards. And also - who was guarding Mo Pete? He went off, and hit several open 3s. Wasn't he Nash's responsibility?

If Nash is mad at Marion or Amare, whatever. I just hope he's looking in a mirror as well.

[Shabazz]

If a trade for a center is not possible, here is a crazy thought- play Diaw at the starting center, Amare at PF, Shawn at SF. Let Hill, LB, Skinner come off the bench. That will be a very strong bench. The Suns still need to fill small gaps with guys like Banks, DJ (please- no Marks or Pike!). On paper that may look like a weaker starting lineup, given Diaw's performance last two years, but it may make the overall team stronger. Hill can still play major minutes, like he is, as a starter. I am of course hoping that the starting position may motivate Diaw to perform at a higher level, and since Amare will be playing his favorite position, there may be less tension between them.

You beat me to this suggestion. I think it's worth a shot too for a few reasons, some that you already mentioned:

1. You can call Boris the "Center" and maybe Amare and Shawn will be happy playing their natural positions even though it doesn't change their roles much.
2. Diaw is a slightly better rebounder than Hill, and that's been a major issue for our starters.
3. It may just be the thing Diaw needs to kick-start his play. His numbers as a starter this year are a lot better and he never has seemed fully comfortable coming off the bench.

The main thing I can see working against this is the fact that Hill is 35 and it takes longer for older players to come in off the bench and warm up. It may stunt his effectiveness.

Of course this is all moot since D'Antoni and his man-crush on Hill will never allow it to happen.

[BlaCkAdDa]

Here are some possible trade scenarios for the Suns:

1. Atlanta pick to Denver for Marcus Camby (he is old, but still effective for one or two years- same as the Suns window). Denver needs a draft pick.

2.Send Amare to Memphis and get Pau Gasol, thus protecting the Atlanta pick.

3.Send Atlanta pick and Banks to Memphis, for Pau Gasol.

4.Banks and Atl pick to Indiana for J.O'neal.

5.STAT to Indiana for J.O'neal

Would any of these work?

I don't believe the Atlanta pick will be a lottery pick, so it is expendable.

1. Wont happen and we dont have cap space
2. I'd rather have Amare, can't see this happening
3. Memphis wouldnt' do this, and probably still doesnt work for cap reasons.
4. see 3. substitute Memphis for Indianna, though slightly more plausible
5. Are you CRAZY?

Given you believe the Atlanta pick wont be lotter, why are you thinking any of the trades above including it would be plausible?

[Phoenix219]

I think Skinner is better coming off the bench, than as a starter. This is just a gut feeling. I believe the Suns need to get a starting center, through a trade, before this season is lost. It does not have to be an all pro; just an above average that can play that position confidently. The Suns cannot afford to have two disinterested starters on the team (Amare and Shawn). Let Amare and Shawn play their natural positions and see if that works.

If a trade for a center is not possible, here is a crazy thought- play Diaw at the starting center, Amare at PF, Shawn at SF. Let Hill, LB, Skinner come off the bench. That will be a very strong bench. The Suns still need to fill small gaps with guys like Banks, DJ (please- no Marks or Pike!). On paper that may look like a weaker starting lineup, given Diaw's performance last two years, but it may make the overall team stronger. Hill can still play major minutes, like he is, as a starter. I am of course hoping that the starting position may motivate Diaw to perform at a higher level, and since Amare will be playing his favorite position, there may be less tension between them.

I suggested that before the season even started, I believe.... Boris has the footwork, post understandings and basketball IQ that Amare lacks, and Diaw roaming the post ready to dish to Amare inside could be deadly. He could do all the dishing to the 3 point line he wanted and all those little nifty inside post takes from the '05 playoffs. Amare could beast away at PF. Shawn and Hill rotating at the 3... Shawn, Hill and Raja all rotating at the 2-3, actually... Skinner backing up Diaw... Shawn backing up Amare by shifting to 4 when Amare is out... going with the barbs/bell/hill/marion/diaw lineup at times... Starting Diaw at Center could make a lot of sense. Shit, if he wantd to, Amare could even learn to shoot 3s.

[JediSkywalker]

Understood, but in the case of Nash, I'm talking about numbers AND effort. His shooting numbers ARE horrid in the past few game (the kind of numbers that have Banks sitting on the bench), and they explain why the Suns are losing as much as any defensive lapses are. I'm not saying to bench Nash or trade him or anything like that... I think he's playing hurt... but it's a fact, his poor shooting is a problem.

Meanwhile, he is enough of a liability on defense that we have to use a forward to guard PGs like Paul or Tony Parker - which means we become even more vulnerable on the boards. And also - who was guarding Mo Pete? He went off, and hit several open 3s. Wasn't he Nash's responsibility?
If Nash is mad at Marion or Amare, whatever. I just hope he's looking in a mirror as well.

Nash has never been a strong defender in the traditional sense. His contributions on defense are through -taking a charge when the team needs it, grabbing rebounds when the team absolutely must have get one, etc. He does a lot in that sense. He is not a strong defender against a 3-point shooter in particular. Does he need to look in the mirror? Probably everyone does once in a while, but his shooting slump has not been due to a lack of effort; it's due to lack of a body. I think he is calling out just a few of his teammates that have the body but are not putting in the effort.

[Mori_Chu]

"I wish I could come up with a way to make sure each guy is ready to play. What do you do? Have an interview with each guy before each game to make sure he understands?"

Wow. That's quite a call-out right there. I hope locker-room chemistry is okay right now. One thing I don't notice this season is much camaraderie, chest-bumping, high fives, etc. I hope the guys actually enjoy playing together...

[SpecialSauce]

I really don't like this team as much as years past. It's not as fun watching them, no doubt about that. We have no pizzazz, no flare. The team is too old, too slow, and nobody's got attitude. We don't have a single intimidating player on this team.

[Wormwood]

It's not about fun, I want wins, even ugly Spurs style grind fests. This is it folks, this year or not for a long time, and then afterwards that long, slow slide into oblivion, like that grandparent who's doing a year long cruise around the world right after being diagnosed with ALzheimer's.

With the team we have now, and the coaching philosophy guiding those players, I do not believe there is a path to the championship right now. I would say we aren't capable of beating most playoff teams in a 7 game series right now.

[RDM2]

Nash has never been a strong defender in the traditional sense. His contributions on defense are through -taking a charge when the team needs it, grabbing rebounds when the team absolutely must have get one, etc. He does a lot in that sense. He is not a strong defender against a 3-point shooter in particular. Does he need to look in the mirror? Probably everyone does once in a while, but his shooting slump has not been due to a lack of effort; it's due to lack of a body. I think he is calling out just a few of his teammates that have the body but are not putting in the effort.

Not true if you look at the way D'Antoni has scrambled the living hell out of these players positions. They are all essentially Nash on defense because every team out there has a bigger stronger player against all of them playing the positions. This is why we are torched all the time, because everyone out there has Nash's disadvantage because they are ALLLLLLLLL playing out of position. Amare is smaller than most of the guys he goes up against, Shawn is guarding 7 footers, Skinner/Diaw as substitutes to Amare when they are 2 guys who are actually smaller than Amare himself. These guys DON'T have the body to be doing what they have been doing for the last few years.

[OE]

Anyone calling to blow up this team is NUTS. Since our picks are in Seattle's hands, there's no point in trying to rebuild for the next 3 years. We're dedicated to putting the best team on the floor that we can for the next 3 years - after which, Nash's contract will be up, Shawn will be gone, Banks will be a FA, Diaw and Barbs will be on their last years, and Amare will either be a FA or, taking the option, on the last year of his contract. We have a three year window with this team, adding the ATL pick this year, our own pick the next, and nothing in that third year (that's painful). There's no point to blowing this up. If anything, we re-tool. If you can, collect some draft picks to make up for what will be an excruciating exercise - watching our lotto pick fly off to OKC to team with rising Sonics, led by the greatest player on the planet not named Lebron James.

THEN we can rebuild.

I say we deal to downgrade our talent, upgrade our chemisty, and alter our style of play. Get a few young players and some picks if you can to give the fans some hope.

Personally, I think (as I've said repeatedly) that our choices are either to make this team a half-court team built around Amare, or we trade him.

[JediSkywalker]

I say we deal to downgrade our talent, upgrade our chemisty, and alter our style of play. Get a few young players and some picks if you can to give the fans some hope.

Personally, I think (as I've said repeatedly) that our choices are either to make this team a half-court team built around Amare, or we trade him.


Where are we going to get the picks? The only one we have is the 2009 pick right now.

After watching Amare play this year, I am not sure that the Suns can build an offense around him. He does not have the size nor the leadership skills. If they want to be a half-court team, they better get a center who is 7 foot plus first.

[Dustbuster]

To me the poorest decision made by this organization was to shortchange JJ during his extension year. If we had kept him it would have prevented some of the other stupid contracts and we would have retained what was to me just about one of the best players for this system that exist in the league.

Game 4 of the 05 playoffs against the Spurs. Bowen and Duncan on JJ, he slides right, he slides left, shakes them both and drains the J over them. Even with that hunk of plastic over his face he was dominant that game, perfectly compliment Amare. I was thinking in that game how great that future tandem would be...meh!

[Dustbuster]

BTW, in the above post I am talking about when he could have been had for under 50 mil FOR SIX YEARS!!!

[ShelC]

I am not sure that the Suns can build an offense around him. He does not have the size nor the leadership skills.

Has he really gotten a legit chance tho? When has the offense been built around him? And how much more size does he need? Except for DHow, i dont think theres a big that can hold Amare. Leadership....that comes with experience and having other guys put around u where they know youre the man. Amare cant lead this team while Raja, Stevie, Hill and Shawn are here.

Our team is what it is....we're gimmicky. We have a gimmick offense and a gimmick defense. Theres no real disciplined basketball we're practicing, not in the conventional sense. We preach smart offense, because otherwise youve got the late 90s suns and just recent warriors teams where there are nothing by long jumpers or 3s. So our guys have to be disciplined and smart as far as that goes. But defense? Fundamental basketball, the kind Pop, JVG, Larry Brown teach is based on fundamental defensive principles that we sorely lack. We play a scrambling defense, switching almost everything, relying on guys to cover each others mistakes, relying on athleticsm to bail us out. But all of those things are based on energy. When we have that bounce and feel good, we can hold our own. When we dont have that bounce and spark, we have nothing to fall back on. Its not about positioning and being where youre supposed to be for us. Its about energy and thats not something you can always control, which we're unfortunately finding out.

Ill get killed for this, but this year more than any other, i'd like see Larry Brown coach us and get guys playing the right way. We have LarryBrown types of players, even if it means less offense, less scoring and less exciting games. But i think even he'd acknowledge the offensive firepower we have and would be more lenient on that side of the ball.

[desertcoast]

For as much as Diaw says he idolized Magic Johnson....someone should strap him in a chair and make him watch 24/7 gametapes of Magic and his ability to facilitate with other big men on the court.

[misteradiant]

If we are not contenders, then you have to either make a trade and hope it elevates you back into contender status, or you have to say "screw this" and re-build.

overreact much? rebuilding because we're going through our first rough stretch of the season while still possessing the third-best record in the league? dude...

[misteradiant]

If we start Skinner, it means we need one more true center coming off the bench.

and we don't have one, you agree.


I did suggest starting SKinner in another thread, so we are thinking somewhat along the same lines though.

and it ends there? start skinner is the answer? when you think we need a real center, not a 4, coming off the bench? don't you negate the desire to start skinner even before you say you suggested it? you'll never be president that way. when you know you're wrong, you gotta just lie.

so we're stuck with amare at the 5. he better just get used to the fucking idea and man up. i'm sick of hearing players bitch about their positions. we have a coach and if amare and shawn went at it 100% every game we'd be vying with boston for the best record.

an open note to amare stoudemire and shawn marion:

gentlemen, you're both paid well and the all star game is yours to lose this year. is that what you want? that's what it looks like so far. i see you pumping yourselves up in seperate nightclubs while the true best of the league plays for fun, uppin' their profiles the entire all star weekend. you'll be pretenders. your mouths will be big. but you'll be forgotten all weekend. shawn, is that gonna get you twenty million a year? amare, you better plan to do something nice with the woman and your shared kid.

- misteradiant

seriously though, i don't think shawn is doing badly. he totally blew the last shot in new orleans. but his effort in games in my humble opinion is there. it's boris and amare that seem to come and go. some players are having bad games, but i give them effort points.

[k_kwan]

overreact much? rebuilding because we're going through our first rough stretch of the season while still possessing the third-best record in the league? dude...

Thank you for stating the most logical opinion on this thread. With this uneven play coming from the suns of late I knew the board would be totally up im arms with the negafans out in full force.

If it were closer to april id be a little apprehensive as well but we're not, and I know this will fall upon deaf ears but lets all take a deep breath........sheesh.

[ShelC]

I thinking Amare playing the 5spot is irrelevant at this point. How many true 5s are there playing right now? The guys may be bigger, but i think amare would have a much tougher time against most 4s...the boozers, the boshs, the goodens, the dirks. By "tougher time", i mean he'd have to put in more work defensively, be it bodying up, guarding on the perimeter, in the post 1on1....yea he goes against Yao, TyChandler and DHow but hes had success against those guys. There arent many other true centers that he has "bang"with.

The coaches are probably doing him a favor "hiding" him at the 5 spot where he can roam the paint a lil bit, go for the weakside block, or grab a rebound.

Shawn is the difference maker in the "energy" department. His 2nd half against Utah that i saw was about as well as ive seen him play. He was an impact player just with his energy and athleticsm. I didnt see the Hornets game but i imagine the opposite was true of him in that game. Amare coasts more often than not, maybe pacing himself.

[misteradiant]

Vash, there's absolutely no way anybody is gonna take Banks and the ATL pick in a trade for their best player. And there's no way our ATL pick lands us someone like Marcus Camby. You're smoking something my friend

that's what you get for even reading his posts, special thousand island dressing sauce (stids), you corporate-aligned humor monger moniker that's still just a dick joke. haven't you figured that out by now? his posts are worse than mine because he isn't doing it on porpoise, like i just did. he thinks he's got really great ideas. it is like taking misteradiant seriously when it is probably best to take him as seriously as a fart in a hurricane. and that's if you can even understand what he's talking about. stids, it's for your own sake. otherwise your feelings will be hurt. laughter is the best medicine and we're a sick, sick society.

besides, you're digging your new nickname. stids is like studs but with a penis instead of a vagina in the middle.
.i.

it's like a logo for a company that sells car stereos and 21" rims. like that or the new world trade center. it's also your logo, stids.

"i am a rock, i am an island!"
ever hear a punk rock band do that song? it would be cool.

i don't blog anymore. i just post crazy shit on here.

that's what you get for bothering to read my posts. for those of you that do and don't regret it, this slug of buttmunch gargle juice is for you.

[INFORMER]

I thinking Amare playing the 5spot is irrelevant at this point. How many true 5s are there playing right now?

I wonder that every time I hear someone complain about Amare playing the 5. I seriously doubt that is the problem. Still, you have to take notice of the Spurs success and how they have protected Duncan by playing him with guys like Nesterovic, Oberto, Elson, Bonner, etc.

[AlanS]

I forgot to post this earlier. Alando Tucker continues to put up good numbers in the D-League. In the Albuquerque Thunderbird's Saturday game vs Anahiem - which the T-birds won, 100-97 - Tucker had this line: 40 minutes, 32 pts, 12-27 FGs, 2-4 3PTs, 6-6 FTs, 5 rebs (3 off), 4 TOs, 0 asst, 0 stls, 0 blks.

His D-League 3PT shooting is now at 40%, and his FT shooting there is now at 82.6%. He's never been great at shooting from the arc or the line, so those numbers are good signs of progress for him.

[misteradiant]

I don't know if this team can all of sudden become more than an average defensive team... do they have the attitude to play that way? Do they have the talent to play that way? Do they have the conditioning to play that way?... for 48 minutes a game. We don't know.

i think they could if they wanted, alan. shawn and amare had 11 blocks between them against utah. if they wanted to do that all the time, our defense would be known as "the block party." shawn, amare and skinner and the suns could average nine or ten blocks every game if they all tried. ten blocks a game is a great mind-fuck to the offense of another team. let them get worried when they come inside. upcoming opponents will worry if amare would commit to it. i also think blocks should be focused on by the coaching staff.

and besides, how many jerseys are you gonna sell when that happens? how exciting are blocks? very. especially when they key a fast break.

boston averages 4.4 blocks a game. san antonio averages 3.9. those are the teams we should be worried about and if they can fear getting the ball stuffed back down their throats ten times the next time they come to our town, we're going to have the edge. just a nice thought of what we could do in june with what we have seen our guys do recently.

the suns would be foolish to trade anyone. it's about consistency and kerr knows it. we're laughing at how kerr was raped in the kt deal in another thread. steve is not making any big changes this season and who we'd like to see go (boris, banks) just don't have easily movable contracts.

i propose that we deal in posts to make the team we have better, coming up with ideas to best utilize the players we have. i vote no on scenarios that do not further this exploration into the team as they are. i believe it is wasted time to bother with players we don't - and probably never will - have. this place is not an existential think tank, even if it is a poetry corner and soap box. this is a phoenix suns message board. the team we have is what we discuss and seek to better.

if you disagree, fine, nobody named me king. but all you do by trading a player is trade for another with characteristics that may just as easily make things worse as soon as they can make things better. to top it off, it's most likely to simply not happen. tom petty said "most things i worry about never happen anyway." i think he is right. can anybody remember the last trade suns scenario posted here that happened later? seriously. just one. one where somebody posted a trade from the suns and it really happened. just like they wrote it. i can't remember but my memory is faulty. been reading too much philip k. dick. anyway, trade scenario that happened. anybody?

see? waste of time.

[misteradiant]

the boozers, the boshs, the goodens, the dirks.

i'm scared. are there more than one of those guys? 'cause if there are....

(shudders)

[Amarvelous]

"i am a rock, i am an island!"
ever hear a punk rock band do that song? it would be cool.



Me First and the Gimme Gimmes did a cover of that great Simon song. They are the kings of punk rock covers. That's on a great album, by the way:

http://www.fatwreck.com/store/detail/554

[cap]

So now the Suns are in a situation where they NEED to play good defense not just in spurts, but all 48 minutes. Here's the question: can they do it? Can this team, with the personnel it has, sustain a strong defensive effort? The answer is, we don't know.

I think we do know. If they were capable of it, don’t you think we would have seen it by now? How many games have we seen with a solid 48 minutes of effort? There have been two types of games: games in which we have shown excellence in runs, and gotten blown out in opposing runs; and games in which we just got blown out, period.

[Amarvelous]

I think we'll see what this team is capable of (in regard to concentration and sustained effort) tomorrow night. If they can't bring it for that game then I agree something is wrong and a shakeup may be needed. Of course it is still December, but it's the Sturns after all....

[darrkin]

As "broke" as we appear to be, I think we are also still just as much a threat. Who out there really scares you right now. I watch many games on league pass, and there is a lot of parity right now. I could easily see us blowing out SA tmrw without Parker, or we may lose....I dont think we are as bad as some people make us out to be or as good for that matter. One thing I wish coach would do is to play the rookies some during the regular season, just to give some different looks to the competition as much as anything. I think it would give us more energy also, along with effort which seems to be missing on this team sometimes. Little early to panic yet, injuries are really the thing that will be the end of us if it is to be our early exit this year. Even in NO game, we barely lost and didnt play that great....It wouldnt surprise me one bit to get a big win in SA and another in Dallas, then lose to Toronto at home

[BobbyDogg]

I believe the biggest factor in the sluggishness is the laid-back approach that this group has enjoyed for the past couple of seasons.

Also, there are still several lingering injuries that are obviously affecting play on the court, Nash in paticular. He is not only having back and shoulder issues but his elbow has been a problem as well.

Amare's legs are going to cause him to play differently even if they aren't hurting. He'll always be thinking about his knees and how to protect them and this will alter his aggression. Bell has had some problems and Diaw's had serious ankle sprains.

Maybe as the season progresses they will play more aggressively, but I think we need some energy on this team in the worst way. They're too good to be playing at a sub-elite team level.

[sunsdotcom]

I thinking Amare playing the 5spot is irrelevant at this point. How many true 5s are there playing right now? The guys may be bigger, but i think amare would have a much tougher time against most 4s...the boozers, the boshs, the goodens, the dirks. By "tougher time", i mean he'd have to put in more work defensively, be it bodying up, guarding on the perimeter, in the post 1on1....yea he goes against Yao, TyChandler and DHow but hes had success against those guys. There arent many other true centers that he has "bang"with.

amare usually defends the bigger and tougher frontcourt player. meaning, guys like duncan (over oberto), boozer (over okur), Howard (over Rashard Lewis). Marion usually is assigned to perimeter bigs like dirk, rashard lewis etc.

[SpecialSauce]

lmao MR @ ur post, slug of buttmunch gargle juice?!?!?! haha do they sell that shit at starbucks?

[sunsdotcom]

To me the poorest decision made by this organization was to shortchange JJ during his extension year. If we had kept him it would have prevented some of the other stupid contracts and we would have retained what was to me just about one of the best players for this system that exist in the league.


BTW, in the above post I am talking about when he could have been had for under 50 mil FOR SIX YEARS!!!

HAAH! everything's much clearer in hindsight. 20/20. but the reason why the suns then refused to give JJ an extension was because they fear JJ might revert back to his passive and underachieving ways after playing one good year of basketball in the post-marbury/hardaway period.

They even signed another shooting guard for 8mil per as an insurance (if JJ did not pan out) and played him at the SF position.

management got it wrong about their fears and expectations, and JJ was asking for the max at the end of 2005, and don't want to even talk to the suns about an extension. They lost him to the Hawks.

So management promised itself that they won't make the same mistake with Boris diaw when it comes to his contract.

That's the punchline.

[SpecialSauce]

oh God here we go again with the JJ deal someone get me some antidiarrheals

[sunsdotcom]

haha... go to bed, saucy.

[OE]

It is ridiculous to think that we're "hiding" Amare at the 5. When you're supposed to be a one-man paint-patrolling machine, you're the target of any player who goes to the basket. If we put a 5 beside Amare, I guarantee he'd appear to be a better defender because a 4 doesn't have nearly the defensive obligations of a 5.

I'd gladly put Amare on Dirk if it meant I didn't have to see him with 2 PFs in the first quarter of every game as a result of being the primary help defender. He can't do it, because he's not a 5, and also because his 4 is actually a 3. In the WC, there are only two centers that are not taller than him. One is Kurt Thomas, the other is Fabricio Oberto. KT has Wilcox next to him, Oberto has Duncan. Amare has Marion. It's silly.

[ShelC]

I'd gladly put Amare on Dirk if it meant I didn't have to see him with 2 PFs in the first quarter of every game as a result of being the primary help defender.

Nah, instead hed get his 2 fouls trying to guard Dirk facing up, falling for a headfake on a jumpshot or reaching in as Dirk dribbles around him.

The real problem, as OE said, is marion playing so ridiculously out of position.

meaning, guys like duncan (over oberto), boozer (over okur), Howard (over Rashard Lewis). Marion usually is assigned to perimeter bigs like dirk, rashard lewis etc.

I usually see us throwing Marion on Booz, Gooden, Lewis, Duncan....but with our defensive switching he always ends up guarding guysl ike Okur, Lewis, Oberto, Elson....its really shawn that allows MikeD to go with that switching defense because Shawn kind of can and kind of will defend everyone on the court. Its not that hes a lock down defender at any particular position, but hes versatile enough to do it and has been willing to be the good soldier and do so.

[tbrkingofthesouth]

Understood, but in the case of Nash, I'm talking about numbers AND effort. His shooting numbers ARE horrid in the past few game (the kind of numbers that have Banks sitting on the bench), and they explain why the Suns are losing as much as any defensive lapses are. I'm not saying to bench Nash or trade him or anything like that... I think he's playing hurt... but it's a fact, his poor shooting is a problem.

Meanwhile, he is enough of a liability on defense that we have to use a forward to guard PGs like Paul or Tony Parker - which means we become even more vulnerable on the boards. And also - who was guarding Mo Pete? He went off, and hit several open 3s. Wasn't he Nash's responsibility?

If Nash is mad at Marion or Amare, whatever. I just hope he's looking in a mirror as well.


Well said

[misteradiant]

lmao MR @ ur post, slug of buttmunch gargle juice?!?!?! haha do they sell that shit at starbucks?


hey bud. nope. it is what i named my alcoholic concoction that consists of mad dog orange jubilee wine, mountain dew, orange juice, tobasco and lime. the full name is misteradiant's bathtub-stirred buttmunch gargle juice. it's yummy and good for constipation.

:cool:


Me First and the Gimme Gimmes did a cover of that great Simon song. They are the kings of punk rock covers. That's on a great album, by the way:

http://www.fatwreck.com/store/detail/554


awesome! thanks amarevelous!