Coro tells the story like it is [Archive]

SwingMan

12-11-2007, 05:29 AM

No news thread, but Coro lays it down raw here, so I will as well - the latest from a justifiably restless Paul Coro's blog at 1:37 a.m. this morning:

The game that got everyone talking (http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/12367)

This seemed like the sort of night that makes you want to talk to a few people for a while about the Suns.

I did it. You probably did it with your friends. Mike D'Antoni, Steve Kerr, Robert Sarver, David Griffin and other staffers did in a postgame, closed-door meeting. It's not unusual that they would meet. It is unusual that it would last until about 10:30 p.m. after a game.

There was much to lament about tonight's game. I will say this for the Suns. The idea was to make Raja Bell score over you and not get the drives and free throws that he thrives off. He went 7 for 7 in the first quarter. Five were jump shots. So Wade was taking the shots you want. Dorrell Wright and Udonis Haslem were taking the shots you want. And they wound up with 40 points. To, the lamentable part of the defense was how it disintegrated after the jumpers. That quarter ended with a bunch of points in the paint via Wade getting fouled by Amare Stoudemire in the paint, Shaq posting Stoudemire twice, Haslem dunking off a Shaq feed and Wade dunking off a Leandro Barbosa turnover.

They still should've been able to recover. Against a team playing its sixth game in nine days and going with a seven-man rotation that includes aging big men Shaq and Zo, you would think the Suns could still fly right by them. Like ESPN's Marc Stein pointed out after the game, the Suns have taken their last two home losses to Miami and Houston -- teams they normally just run into obliteration.

Point fingers at the defense that seemed improved for a while but now can go a whole quarter with a defender barely touching the ball, let alone stepping in front for a change once in a while. Question the energy because they sure had plenty enough to play defense in the fourth quarter against Minnesota and to score 15 points in the final 1:45 against Houston.

But here is where the focus of the beat writer's postgame conversations fell: the bench.

Leandro Barbosa: He shoots more than anyone on the team and that's seemingly acceptable to everyone. It wasn't just that he was 4 of 17. It's that he took 17 shots in 20 minutes. He also had three turnovers and shot two free throws. So 21 possessions ended with Barbosa last touching the ball in those 20 minutes, a big chunk of the game. In the fourth quarter, Phoenix scored five points when he was on the court and 26 after he left with 6:11 to go. Obviously, Barbosa is marvelous when he's hot or blowing by people and he seemed to have found some mid-range comfort recently but then there are nights when you wonder what his teammates really think of him shooting so much.

Boris Diaw: He makes $9 million now. And I drew a line on the box score tonight and told someone to stop me when I hit something other than a zero. He's about as disengaged as he can get.

If anyone needs perspective for a how productive a player at his salary should be, here are some examples: Gerald Wallace (a new six-year deal averaging $9.5 million), Andres Nocioni ($8.5 million salary), Josh Howard ($9 million), Jason Terry ($8.3 million), Nene ($8.8 million), Rip Hamilton ($9.75 million), Tayshaun "You could've drafted me" Prince ($8.7 million), Al Harrington ($8.4 million), Mike Dunleavy ($8.2 million), Cuttino Mobley ($8.4 million), Chris Kaman ($8.6 million), Corey Maggette ($7.8 million), Mike Miller ($8.3 million), Mo Williams ($7.8 million), Tyson Chandler ($10 million), Eddy Curry ($8.9 million), Quentin Richardson ($8.1 million), Jamal Crawford ($7.9 million), Sam Dalembert ($9.7 million), Andre Miller ($9.4 million), Ron Artest ($7.8 million), Manu Ginobili ($9.1 million), T.J. Ford ($8.0 million), Mehmet Okur ($8.5 million), Caron Butler ($8.2 million) and Kurt Thomas ($8.1 million). Did you know Thomas is averaging 9.9 rebounds a game in an average of 22.7 minutes? While we reminisce, did you know James Jones is 11 for 15 on three-pointers in the past three games? He even got a TNT halftime interview.

Is there anybody in that list not doing more than Diaw? Diaw's company makes for a shorter list. How about Erick Dampier ($8.6 million), Adonal Foyle ($8.9 million), Troy Murphy ($9.2 million), Kwame Brown ($9.1 million), Jason Williams ($8.9 million), Bobby Simmons ($9.3 million), Antonie Walker ($8.5 million) and Darius Miles ($8.3 million)?

Brian Skinner: The guy helps. It seems like he's not part of the plan until there's trouble. Skinner's plus-minus against Miami was plus-15. That's really hard to pull off in a game you lost. It's not that made shots either. That's gravy. He has an intelligent defensive presence and contagious energy when he is on the court.

Marcus Banks: Kerr initiated a postgame conversation with the guard in the hallway after the game. Will Banks be back in the rotation for the first time since four first-half minutes against the Clippers on Nov. 23?

A 16-6 record. Two bad losses. Droves of fans walking out with more than three minutes to go. Recent hints aplenty of chemistry issues. Everyone's spoiled. Only the Suns. I bet six losses feels a lot different in Detroit or Orlando.

AmareIsGod

12-11-2007, 07:18 AM

Awesome article. Telling it like it is.

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 08:40 AM

Good article.

Is there a reason (injury) Banks is not playing? (there was a mention of Kerr talking to him after the game).

Those salary numbers and names make me really mad. We threw away KT and JJ and we are stuck with the likes of Diaw, Marks, Pike. Note: Banks is not even on this list (meaning he could potentially be better than these guys). Unless LB improves, I may be tempted to put him on that list. He is having too many off nights and he is missing way too many FTs.

It's time for Kerr to step in and make some midseason acqusitions or this team is doomed, and not just this season.

INFORMER

12-11-2007, 08:43 AM

I know this going to sound odd, coming from me, but are we pushing the panic button too soon? A closed-door meeting @ 16-6? I didn't see the game, but I just find it strange that after just two losses (and some very bad showings at home), all of a sudden everyone's in red alert.

With that said, I don't disagree with any of Coro's points. In regards to Barbosa, I think it falls on D'Antoni to recognize when Barbs is going to be a detriment to the team and either pull him aside and give him an earful OR just bench him.

Boris Diaw: He makes $9 million now. And I drew a line on the box score tonight and told someone to stop me when I hit something other than a zero. He's about as disengaged as he can get.

If anyone needs perspective for a how productive a player at his salary should be, here are some examples: Gerald Wallace (a new six-year deal averaging $9.5 million), Andres Nocioni ($8.5 million salary), Josh Howard ($9 million), Jason Terry ($8.3 million), Nene ($8.8 million), Rip Hamilton ($9.75 million), Tayshaun "You could've drafted me" Prince ($8.7 million), Al Harrington ($8.4 million), Mike Dunleavy ($8.2 million), Cuttino Mobley ($8.4 million), Chris Kaman ($8.6 million), Corey Maggette ($7.8 million), Mike Miller ($8.3 million), Mo Williams ($7.8 million), Tyson Chandler ($10 million), Eddy Curry ($8.9 million), Quentin Richardson ($8.1 million), Jamal Crawford ($7.9 million), Sam Dalembert ($9.7 million), Andre Miller ($9.4 million), Ron Artest ($7.8 million), Manu Ginobili ($9.1 million), T.J. Ford ($8.0 million), Mehmet Okur ($8.5 million), Caron Butler ($8.2 million) and Kurt Thomas ($8.1 million). Did you know Thomas is averaging 9.9 rebounds a game in an average of 22.7 minutes? While we reminisce, did you know James Jones is 11 for 15 on three-pointers in the past three games? He even got a TNT halftime interview. (OUCH!)

Is there anybody in that list not doing more than Diaw? Diaw's company makes for a shorter list. How about Erick Dampier ($8.6 million), Adonal Foyle ($8.9 million), Troy Murphy ($9.2 million), Kwame Brown ($9.1 million), Jason Williams ($8.9 million), Bobby Simmons ($9.3 million), Antonie Walker ($8.5 million) and Darius Miles ($8.3 million)?

WORD

BTW: I still don't have a problem with dealing KT or James Jones. I just find the manner in which they were traded absurd.

ShelC

12-11-2007, 08:51 AM

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 08:53 AM

I know this going to sound odd, coming from me, but are we pushing the panic button too soon? A closed-door meeting @ 16-6? I didn't see the game, but I just find it strange that after just two losses (and some very bad showings at home), all of a sudden everyone's in red alert.

With that said, I don't disagree with any of Coro's points. In regards to Barbosa, I think it falls on D'Antoni to recognize when Barbs is going to be a detriment to the team and either pull him aside and give him an earful OR just bench him.

WORD

BTW: I still don't have a problem with dealing KT or James Jones. I just find the manner in which they were traded absurd.

I don't have a problem with ANY trade, as long as the price is right. The Suns gave away their future in their trades last three years, and this year was THE worst in that respect.

About pushing the panic button- I am not mad because of a loss, but rather it was the way the Suns played. They lost back to back games to two worst teams in the league. They played no defense in the 1st Q, and they could not produce key stops in the final quarter. Wade is a great player and you can only shut him down for so long (3rd Q). They had to stop the others. I saw no intelligence on the part of the Suns or their coach. The exceptions were Marion and Skinner, and Nash in the 4th Q when he made unbelievable plays. It should not have come down to playing a catchup game. The Heat's biggest lead was 14, which is nothing for a high power team like the Suns. Their offense just sat after tying the game 80-80 instead of taking off, while the Heat scored 9 unanswered points and pretty much established who the better team was.

The Suns should have rolled over this team and beaten them by 20, right from the word go. Their lackadaisical attitude is what bothers me. There is no way this team is going to win a championship. They seem content to play a great game once in a while, that too against weaker opponents.

I predict that against UT,NOH,SAS and Mavs they will go 1-3. They will somehow find a way to win one of those games. If they play a Jekyll/Hyde, they may win 2 of those. Right now Mr.Hyde is playing as the Suns team. Oh, the coach is not exempt; he is the main problem, IMO.

Dammit

12-11-2007, 09:03 AM

I was yelling at the TV for coach to put the starters back in when it was tied at 80 and we couldn't get a bucket. I seriously don't know what that guy is thinking sometimes. At least put Marion and STAT back in at that point.

CNY_xplant

12-11-2007, 09:34 AM

Great article Swing.
Even though I try to keep up my optimistic viewpoint on the team, their play over the last two games has me concerned.
I haven't been able to watch these games, but here's what I'm mainly concerned about.

With Steve having something that is bothering his shot and LB going cold, our offense has gone a bit flat. My concern here is what happens when Steve and LB are cold. The offense drags down. If Steve isn't making his shots, the defense can back off him a bit and focus more on disrupting his passes and covering the other Suns. When LB is cold, he actually hurts the offense because he continues to shoot and doesn't distribute the ball.

Defensively, it seems like it's hit or miss. Shawn, Raja, and now Skinner are the only ones we can truly count on game to game to be active defensively.

When Steve and/or LB are cold, the offense should focus more on Amare and Hill. They're the only two on this team that can truly create their own shot, except for Steve.

Not attacking him, but Boris is a disappointment right now. I really don't care what the reason is that he's not producing. He's simply not and he has shown that he is capable. This needs to be fixed by Coach AND Boris. Diaw is a professional and is being paid like one, so he needs to figure out how to make himself useful out there. Coach needs to figure out how to create situations where Diaw can do what he's capable of.

Skinner needs more minutes. He is proving himself to be a defensive strength for this team. He has been a pleasant surprise. I had no idea that he would be as beneficial to the team as he has shown.

Wormwood

12-11-2007, 09:56 AM

Big changes are a' comin'. We sure as hell don't look like contenders. We just lost to two God-Awful teams. The defense is frakked, and fer the love of all that's good and holy, why is it taking D'Antoni so long to realize you use your best post defendder on the opponent's best low post presence.

Kerr has to be desperate, since he realizes he can't rebuild until AFTER 2010 when Seattle doesn't own any more of our picks.

Marcus Camby, Nachbar, and picks for Amare?. Stro Swift for Boris?
Right now, we're terrible defensively and in terms of rebounding.

Superbone

12-11-2007, 10:05 AM

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/nba_experts/post/Behind-the-boxscore-Where-Hawks-become-men?urn=nba,57181

By Kelly Dwyer

Miami 117, Phoenix 113

Nearly two years ago, the Phoenix Suns (sans Amare Stoudemire and Leandro Barbosa) ran out to a 47-25 first quarter lead on a Miami Heat outfit that would end up winning the NBA championship in five months time. Last night, with the Suns returning home for the first game after a long road trip and a primed Heat squad playing the second of a back-to-back, it was Miami's turn to run out to an early 40-29 lead and not look back. Actually, they looked back a little; the Suns eventually tied the game at 80 before the Heat pulled away, but Miami set the tone and Phoenix wanted no part of defending Pat Riley's crew. Guards like Dwyane Wade and Chris Quinn were able to poke and prod wherever they wanted, Miami didn't mind making the entry pass, and the Suns looked old and disinterested for the better part of the loss.

Phoenix is now 14th in defensive efficiency on the year, which is passable only if they tear things up offensively at a level that more than makes up for average defense. And this year, stuck at 5th in the NBA at overall offense, the Suns are more assuredly not. I think they need to dump that thing they call a point guard.

What the...?

wpmiller42

12-11-2007, 10:06 AM

Well, if this closed door meeting gets a few more minutes to the bench, and breathes a greater sense of urgency into this team, this loss might be a blessing in disguise.

In particular, I really think we should try starting Skinner and have either Grant or Raja come off the bench. I just think that helps us out in so many ways, and having Grant come off the bench gives us a quality distributor, scorer, and defensive guy.

And I hope Banks gets another shot. Last year, there was a reason for him sitting. He was playing poorly and had a bad attitude. This year, I really thought he was showing us something good and had earned a few minutes. Hopefully he gets another crack at it.

Nate

12-11-2007, 10:13 AM

Too soon or not too soon, we are back to where we were after the first few games of the season. Back then, almost all of our regulars were just coming back from injury or were playing through major discomfort. Weeks later, most of the good reasons for the lackluster start are gone while there seem to be more deep-rooting problems at hand now.

1. Even know, we totally seem to lack energy for large parts of the games. Thats typical for a veteran team like we are, but therefore D'Antoni should use his bench more. Players who leave it all on the floor are contagious, and Strawberry and Skinner seem to fit the bill more than Diaw and Pike.

2. To me it seems Mike and the coaching staff are unsure at the moment how to define roles for our players. The dynamics of our team have changed over the last few years, and till know there is no solution how to fit the parts together.

3. Amares defense/rebounding: Whenever Amare is having the energy on D without committing to many dumb fouls (and he is called for many because of his poor defensive stance), we look good. Its only natural to be overwhelmed by Shaq and co, but come on, 4 defensive rebounds in 35 min against Minnesota is rediculous for our #"1".

4. Stevie is still good, but his injuries have made him a subpar shooter, which isnt helping at all.

5. I dont really mind Diaw statsline because he can help on so many different levels but right now he just doesnt seem to care.

illmatic

12-11-2007, 10:41 AM

These last 2 losses has really made me sick to my stomach. I didn't catch the T-Wolves game thankfully, and could easily dismiss that loss to the end of the road trip and a young team like the T-Wolves comin out and playing like it's the championship. However, after watching last night's game has me really concerned. Just a few observations: Without even looking at the boxscore I turned to my friend and basically stated how Leandro Barbosa shot us out of the game, I didn't realize he shot 4-17 in 20 minutes, thats a lot of freakin' shots in so little time. Also, towards the end of the game I saw a couple of Suns players, namely Shawn Marion joking around with Shaq and smiling with under a minute left. I know Marion has been one of the ones who's been giving it his all however, if I were in his position I'd be so pissed. I don't know, maybe us fans care more about winning a championship then the guys on the team do.

phnart

12-11-2007, 10:47 AM

LB looked horrible last night after about the fifth minute he played in the game. At first, yes, he wasn't hitting his shots, but he had a couple of nice assists, then he went back to chucking it up every time and making stupid fouls. He cost the Suns at least 2 of the three points they lost by when he fouled DWade after a steal and then unnecessarily undercutting Udonis Haslem on a jumper.

The overall D in the first half was atrocious until Skinner came in the game. Nash has absolutely no clue how to stay home. How many times was Stevie's man wide open for a jumper? I know he's trying to help, and damn it, they have to help each other on defense, but Nash just doesn't have a grasp of how to play solid help defense. I wish he would just stay home on his man and not try to play the passing lanes or double team big men.

I don't see how they can really make any changes at this point without giving up the ATL pick or Barbosa. Diaw needs to go away, but who is going to take him without giving up an equally bad salary?

Miamisun

12-11-2007, 11:10 AM

I dont have a problem with any players on this team right now. Even Boris will be fine during the course of an 82 game season. My problem right now is our coach not being able to get the most out of a 15 man roster.

The really strange thing is that short rotations may become a trend in the NBA. Did you notice Riley went with only 7 players last night as well? This tells me that other teams will find a way to match up to the Suns and just leave those players out there and not worry about our coaching staff making adjustments. This is a red flag this year. Last year....ok we give D'antoni the benefit of the doubt. But after an offseason of promising deeper rotations, this is becoming a major zit on the ass of our team.

INFORMER

12-11-2007, 11:23 AM

I predict that against UT,NOH,SAS and Mavs they will go 1-3.

I say they'll go 3-1.

Marcus Camby, Nachbar, and picks for Amare?. Stro Swift for Boris?

Don't be ridiculous, Wormwood.

jed

12-11-2007, 11:47 AM

I think we'd be pushing the panic button a little early to do anything drastic. Mainly because the Suns have lacked killer instinct out of the gate the last few years and coach often uses this time to do a lot of tweaking anyway.

Still, I thought this offseason could have used a big trade. Marion was the biggest candidate because of his commentary. I stil think we could use one. Obviously not a move that changes the direction of the team, but maybe one that gives us a little course correction.

I sill love Marion for Kirilenko and change. I think the idea of moving Amare is the joke of all jokes. Just so short-sighted it's surprising. No one would be overly interested in Diaw right now. But what else is there?

jed

12-11-2007, 11:54 AM

I'd also love if we could use Marion to cherry-pick a few guys we like from the Bulls. Thomas, Noah, etc. Not sure how the salaries would match, though.

sehan

12-11-2007, 12:32 PM

sehan

12-11-2007, 12:34 PM

Maybe we need to stop the nepotism and fire the brother and replace him with Grant Hill.

tbrkingofthesouth

12-11-2007, 12:46 PM

Billyjoejimbob

12-11-2007, 12:54 PM

I wonder how much of their lack of defensive intensity has to do with Iavaroni being gone. I believe he was the defensive coach for the most part last season. They just seem to be lost and disinterested on defense much of the time and nobody even tries to get rebounds, they all just stand around and watch the ball land in somebody else's hands. It seems to me to mostly be a lack of effort, not a lack of talent. I don't think they can count on their offense to feed the intensity they need to play good defense, I think it needs to be the other way around and except for a few games here and there and for spots throughout some of the other games, it hasn't been there. I don't think it has been there consistently through any one game that I've seen.

1tinsoldier

12-11-2007, 01:36 PM

first of all, the Suns are having a excellent season as usual. 2 games ago, before they started missing shots they normally make, the media was all over our amazing offense. The problem is that they are not playing to the level of potential champions.

The reason, is the same old story. You can't depend on your offense every night, but teams like the Spurs can depend on their defense every night. They've got it down so well they haven't missed a beat with Duncan out.

But when our outside shooters are off -- Nash, Bell, Barbosa, we pay the price for our "we score more", "Amare lite on defense because we can't afford to keep him on the bench" philosophy.

I don't know if there is a viable solution. But it is too early to tell if we need a significant one since we haven't played any of the best teams in the league yet this year.

Maybe we'll just have to hope we get some of the breaks we didn't get in the playoffs last year. And in the mean time, relax about losing 1 in every 3 or 4 games.

MTSunsFan

12-11-2007, 01:42 PM

I don't know if there is a viable solution. But it is too early to tell if we need a significant one since we haven't played any of the best teams in the league yet this year.

Maybe we'll just have to hope we get some of the breaks we didn't get in the playoffs last year. And in the mean time, relax about losing 1 in every 3 or 4 games.

Relax, eh? That's asking a lot of many here @ bipolar.net :wink:

triplethreat06

12-11-2007, 02:24 PM

I wonder if Amare's enormous pride is even slightly wounded when he gets torched by just about every legitimate center/post player in this league.

Wormwood

12-11-2007, 02:42 PM

Can you smell that? The scent of change is in the air...

Either that or I need to empty out the diaper bucket again.

darrkin

12-11-2007, 02:50 PM

Ha HA...I 'm too used to that smell now with two little ones

ShelC

12-11-2007, 02:50 PM

I dont think drastic changes are coming. I think, or at least hope, Kerr is starting to assert some power and authority and layin it down on MikeD about his rotations and sub pattern. On paper, theres nothing wrong with this team. Its expecting 7 of them to play 48mpg at 100mph, shoot 55% from the field and 45% from 3 thats the problem.

Ring_Wanted

12-11-2007, 02:52 PM

Would the Heat take Diaw for Williams?

Coop

12-11-2007, 02:56 PM

I dont think at this time we could get a ball boy for Diaw.

triplethreat06

12-11-2007, 03:00 PM

Can you smell that? The scent of change is in the air...

Either that or I need to empty out the diaper bucket again.

Yeah, and guess what that change is gonna be??

Marcus Banks!

Seriously, that post match meeting between Kerr and Banks disgusts me in so many ways. I know we're struggling right now but they can't possibly feel that Banks is a solution in any way. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD START PLAYING STRAWBERRY!

And I think this team is ripe for change. No one on this team has the guts to speak up anymore. Raja used to do it but he can't put together a string of consistent games anymore. Who the hell is challenging this team to become better? D'antoni? He's not willing to admit there's even a problem. And Diaw needs to be bagged and beaten, badly. Ten years ago guy's would whup each other up in the locker room, now you can't even call a teammate out without everyone in the media jumpin on your ass.

scosuns

12-11-2007, 03:03 PM

I agree with you in playing Strawberry. I like the kid. He's athletic, good size, and seems to have a good idea of the game. But D'Antoni will never give him even a few minutes unless their at the end of a win. I'm not saying give the kid 20-30 mins, but give him some time. Also, try Banks. Wait, we did. Hmmmm....

Mori_Chu

12-11-2007, 03:21 PM

Our guard rotation is the weakest part of our team right now. Nash is hurting and can't hit his shots. Barbosa is shooting poorly and ballhogging us out of games. Raja is playing well but is still coming along from recovery from nagging injuries. And that's basically it for us for guards. What happened? The Suns used to always have one of the deepest, most lethal guard rotations in the league. No more.

We need another high-impact guard in our rotation. Coach should start playing Banks and/or DJ to figure out who that guy is going to be. Both of those guys bring good D and decent (but not great) outside shooting. DJ brings good distributing skills as well. Find a way to play them, Coach.

RDM2

12-11-2007, 03:27 PM

Jed, Agreed. Amare's got to stay. If anything, this game highlights that more than ever. Yeah go ahead and run run run, but as late Cotton use to say, you live by the jumper, you die by the jumper.

For the life of me, I can't really understand why it is ok for Barbosa to take more shots than Amare. I know the kid has a great character and we don't want to bust his confidence, but for him to ascend to that next level, someone has to teach him that it is not ok to just keep throwing up bricks. If the shot is not there, you got to put your head down and take it in and get to the line. Better yet, passed the ball!!!

And for the life of me, please please please play Amare and Skinner together. Amare and Doris or Skinner and Doris is not a good front line. Playing Amare and Skinner together will keep Amare out of foul trouble and keep him fresh on the offensive end. Not to mention we may actually get some defensive rebounds.

I am on the side of too early to panic as well, but I would be open to Shawn trade - only if we can include banks or Doris.

I think the problem may have been that he won 6th man of the year before he was taught any of that. Now hes just out of control. Last night he completely ruined our offense and I think it caused a snowball effect.

Amares defensive woes are not completely his fault as our guards tend to let ppl just waltz past them freely (Although now I think hes just stopped tryin to block those shots that get by the guards which has allowed him to score 30ppg in the last 5 or 6 games.), but 1v1 Amare still does get torched on D. But this is stuff we've been saying for years now and Mike D won't change it, what can ya do. Skinner is a blessing to say the least after our offseason blunders and he won't even see that.

I remain optimistic though since last night was just a result of double teaming Shaq and his shooters nailing the shots when he passed out.

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 03:33 PM

Here's some ideas I came up with that worked under the trade checker. Not necessarily upgrades in overall talent, but we NEED a freakin deadly shooter, or a powerful big.

Phoenix Receives:
Jake Voskuhl (I always liked his hustle and energy, he's a serviceable big)
Bobby Simmons (close to same contract as Diaw, but career 40% 3pt shooter and 2 years less)
Michael Redd (no explanation necessary)

Milwaukee Receives:
Shawn Marion
Leandro Barbosa
Boris Diaw

I DON'T THINK INDIANA WOULD DO THIS DEAL, but if they would :)

Phoenix Receives:
Jermaine O'Neal

Indiana Receives:
Shawn Marion
Leandro Barbosa
ATL 1st rounder

I'm trying to think of something that would work for Mike Miller, but I just can't think of anything.

DrSublime

12-11-2007, 03:45 PM

saucy..both of your trades have more talent going OUT then coming IN....

scosuns

12-11-2007, 03:47 PM

Putting Marion and Barbosa in the same trade is really not the right thing. Plus, I don't think Marion would except to a contract extension with Milwaukee, so Milwaukee probably wouldn't do the deal.

I think if we're going to trade Marion, maybe we can do something with Detroit. Something like Rasheed Wallace and Jason Maxiell for Marion. Add cash where needed or fillers.

We need a big body to take pressure off Amare and a guy that can hit the J and is passionate. Rasheed does that, and can play some D.

Superbone

12-11-2007, 04:01 PM

I say they'll go 3-1.

Wow, INF. That's a gutsy prediction after the way we played in the last 2...

scosuns

12-11-2007, 04:09 PM

Right now, Diaw is terrible. He's getting 9 million, and can't even get double figures in one category. Its just ugly and one of the worst signings I've seen.

They need to work with him. Its not that he doesn't have talent, but the dudes too passive. There's no fire or urgency. Its just la dee da with him. He has tons of talent. He can hit the outside shot, handle the ball very good for a bigger man, is not a ballhog(which for him is a bad thing in some aspects), and has a good sense of the game. But he passes on open layups, open shots, and sometimes makes bonehead decisions.

I think if the coaching staff can work with him, get a fire lit under his ***, and threaten to bench him if he doesn't start playing hard, then we might be able to see Boris turn into a great asset to this team.

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 04:20 PM

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 04:31 PM

saucy..both of your trades have more talent going OUT then coming IN....

Jermaine O'Neal??? Are you kidding me? A front court of J'O and Amare makes me giddy. Unstoppable on O (Amare), and a bigtime defensive presence on D (J'O).

Nash/Diaw/Banks
Bell/Banks/Strawberry
Hill/Strawberry
Amare/Diaw
O'Neal/Skinner

I also have a couple of thoughts on the makeup of the team, and where Boris fits. Boris is NOT a good off-the-ball player, he just does not know how to move without the ball. He needs the ball in his hands to make plays, and he's SO good at finding the open man. I DON'T UNDERSTAND why D'A continually uses LB as the PG, when he has a true pg in Boris. The few times I've seen him run the break, I've loved it. It's time to use Boris as he's meant to be used on offense: as the set up man. I would love the rotation above, love love love.

illmatic

12-11-2007, 04:37 PM

That'd leave us too weak at the guard spot IMO.

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 04:40 PM

As for the Milwaukee trade, I like it but I can see how most of you wouldn't. Now that I think of it, we can't get rid of both Diaw AND Marion because we lose too much size. How about this deal:

Phoenix Receives:
Redd
Voskuhl
Ramon Sessions

Milwaukee Receives:
LB
Matrix

Don't know if Milwaukee would consider that, but offensively our lineup would be ridiculous.

Nash/Diaw/Banks
Redd/Bell
Hill/Strawberry
Skinner/Diaw
Amare/Voskuhl

Mori_Chu

12-11-2007, 04:49 PM

Saucy, I don't like either of those trades. As badly as Marion is shooting this year, if we ditch him for the likes of Bobby Simmons and Jake Voskuhl, we'll be terrible. And although Barbosa has shot us out of a few games, I don't think we should forget what an amazing contract deal he has for us, and just how valuable he can be. Some nights he single-handedly carries us to victory, and he definitely wins us way more games than he loses us.

ShelC

12-11-2007, 04:49 PM

The idea of skinner starting is laughable, at least while MikeD is coach. All these trades your proposing make us much more of a halfcourt team which means a major overhaul in the middle of whats considered a championship run. And this isnt a tweak or adding a guy to put us over the top kind of trade. Its a major change in personnel and philosophy, which could be disasterous.

I also have a couple of thoughts on the makeup of the team, and where Boris fits. Boris is NOT a good off-the-ball player, he just does not know how to move without the ball. He needs the ball in his hands to make plays, and he's SO good at finding the open man. I DON'T UNDERSTAND why D'A continually uses LB as the PG, when he has a true pg in Boris. The few times I've seen him run the break, I've loved it. It's time to use Boris as he's meant to be used on offense:

Boris isnt a ballhandler/facilitator in a guard sense. I think he actually needs offense run through him, where hes a main option offensively and then looking to dish in a halfcourt setting. As a ballhandler, or point-forward, ala GrantHill, hes never really stood out or impressed me cuz he doesnt move like a guard. But everytime ive seen him as a main option in the high post, playing the 5 spot where he can penetrate off the dribble, work a 2 man pick and roll, or work out of the post (when he has a mismatch), hes near unguardable. Its those kind of situations we have to duplicate.

ShelC

12-11-2007, 04:56 PM

And although Barbosa has shot us out of a few games, I don't think we should forget what an amazing contract deal he has for us, and just how valuable he can be. Some nights he single-handedly carries us to victory, and he definitely wins us way more games than he loses us.

Yea, i dont know where the venom for Barbs has come from. I definitely understand the frustration watching the guy jack up soht after shot or turning the ball over on stupid mistakes....ive been screaming about it for 3 years. But thats the player we've created, so to speak. Thats what our offense is about and when hes on, he exactly what we need. But u gotta take the good with the bad. U cant love him when hes dropping 35 and then want to trade him when he struggles with 11. Ask for more efficiency, pray that he makes better decisions. But he needs to be a threat offensively. Even if the 3s arent falling, they need to be taken to keep the defenses honest and the floor spread.

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 04:58 PM

When has LB played well in a big game? NEVER!!! He only plays well against shitty teams who don't have a clue how to defend the Suns. Against any half decent defensive team he 99% of the time plays terrible, and literally hands the game over in the form of TO's and bricks.

Mori, you say he wins us more games than he loses us. That's true in the regular season where only 20% of our games are against the best teams in the league. In the postseason? Exact opposite. I don't care if he was being paid $1 million, he's just not a good fit on this team. I've been a hater since day one, and I'm glad a few others are starting to see what he does to our offensive flow. He's Marcus Banks with a jumpshot.

wpmiller42

12-11-2007, 05:04 PM

When has LB played well in a big game? NEVER!!! He only plays well against shitty teams who don't have a clue how to defend the Suns. Against any half decent defensive team he 99% of the time plays terrible, and literally hands the game over in the form of TO's and bricks

How about the Laker series after Raja took out kobe? That's just one example off the top of my head. You obviously don't like Leandro, but the guy has had some big games for us at big moments.

I think Leandro should not be the primary ball handler with the second unit. I think that would eliminate Leandro's dominance of the ball. Let him play with Grant Hill or force Marcus to be a distributor, and Leandro is going to make good decisions.

SwingMan

12-11-2007, 05:05 PM

The only thing worse than trying to get through a rough stretch of games is doing so while attempting to muddle through all the inevitable and endless trade scenario droning that always follows.....

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 05:12 PM

How about the Laker series after Raja took out kobe? That's just one example off the top of my head. You obviously don't like Leandro, but the guy has had some big games for us at big moments.

I think Leandro should not be the primary ball handler with the second unit. I think that would eliminate Leandro's dominance of the ball. Let him play with Grant Hill or force Marcus to be a distributor, and Leandro is going to make good decisions.

He's too small to play SG, I really don't like him in that role either. And there is NOTHING more irritating than seeing him dribble the ball and point at his teammates, directing them on where to go as if he knows what he's doing.

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 05:13 PM

coro is right about leandro. 17 shots in 20 minutes is something we ought to complain about, especially when he ends up going 4 of those 17. when he's cold in the first 5 minutes, coach ought to bench him or demand he pass the ball. he forces shots and drives into the lane like he did 3 years ago when most of us wanted him traded. he's a veteran now. he's a 6th man of the year. he is better than the last sun who won that honor and got fat. what was his name? bosephus mcmidrange? leandro ought to do and know better. he better start thinking of the other guys.

boris needs to be fired. a team ought to be able to do that. a team should be allowed to just fire a guy, pay him a few weeks salary to be nice, and be done with him.

in reading coro's blog, it reminds me of a rant of mine but on a bunny slope scale of matterhorn ski hell visions on mushrooms. coro really held his shit back in that post. he laid out his research and with it, laid out his opinions of seeandthrow and boreus. i agree paul, they need to be smacked around and shown the light or the mud.

he slyly posits that we should have traded boris instead of thomas. who here would not welcome that today?

as i sit at home, reveling with mad dog in the conspiracy my boss defined to me today as he fired me with a great severance package, i offer some observations that might not always be cognizant to phoenix suns basketball:

i grow old. i grow old when the suns play like they could care less for the safety of their jobs, for the fans, for their loved ones, for their boss. the meeting last night after the game was between the bosses. wonder what they said. watch the suns closely in the next two games. what they spoke of will be acted out then. the bosses can't trade boris and you know they wish they could. but they can tell leandro to pass the fucking ball. they can tell amare to do more than look for the block. they can tell steve and grant to keep on keepin' on and buy them a drink and invite raja. leave everybody else alone. shawn is used to it and it will keep brian edgy.

from my speakers chris cornell is singing of the spires and the gables growing in orchards to the sky. it's a beautiful vision i ask you to look for where the blessings on our table multiply and divide. i think we'll be fine. how? we are pretenders to the throne. some day we will go from pretending, from acting out in response, to being champions. our best year to win it all in this run was our first year. three years later we find this year, dramatic, tired, expectant and my bet is that the suns will soon learn the killer instinct for the playoffs begins now. we really should be on a 7-game winning streak. but they don't know the killer instinct needs to last between games, not only within them. i think they will figure that out this year. if they don't, break it up. the challenges are no less daunting than any year before. they are more daunting. because of them, we must use them as the measure of what makes a true champion.

getting it easy is less than worthy of tears. it is less than worthy of blood. it is less than worthy of worship. and that is what we want. we want them all to bow before us. this team better realize that and man up or get blown up.

we can be lonely no more. is our salvation near? it cannot go on like this forever. everything changes. nothing remains the same.

hang my head. drown my fear. 'till you all just disappear. black hole sun. won't you come and wash away the rain.

you don't throw your life away going inside. there will come a time when time goes out the window. if anything unfolds it's supposed to. you don't throw your time away sitting still. i had to consult some figures from the past. i've this night to unglue, doing things there's no reason to do.

that last paragraph was by john frusciante. yay for john frusciante.

go suns.

give banks boris's minutes. boris doesn't deserve them. wormwood, i pour whiskey on your amare trade ideas and light them on fire. superbone, dwyer had to be joking, at least that's what he's screaming as i slam his head against the wall with my thumbs deep in his eye sockets. jed? marion for ak?

hello, operator?
what's the number for 1-800-SPANKING?
um....

informer said "With that said," that means i post a poem. thems my rules. you can stop reading here if you want but this is called "bebop blues in a busted stereo speaker":

somebody stop me with a shopping cart from walmart
when the riots happen and i'm contemplating looting too
shake that thank you please i'll have another
when the police man wags his finger
like a big black stick
upon a big black head
mister city policeman wags my finger
you've been bad
see that line behind you
they are all gonna wail on you

walking nationwide boulevards of strip mall wannabe billboard signs
a fucking mile high
arg! screamed the sun
it's burger king!

what a great thing to be in love
to never care the sentence structure
remembering bukowski
when the spirit is lost
the form comes

time for another drink

walking streetside remembrance of alleyway drug deal fuck scenes
she wore her sunglasses at night, too
lying whore stole my money
i found her passed out at her kitchen table
four a.m. with her hand stuck in a jar of mayonnaise
i found her on the floor a few minutes later
when i pushed her there
that's what she got for coming after me

america is called the homeland now
that makes it amerika
with a k for hurt you too
like a hitler fantasy for the four times his dick ever got hard
its heartland
if the destiny of america can be nicknamed
if what she means to the world in times of darkness
can be reduced
it would be less frightening of world domination
at the expense of bill of rights gone wrong
wrong address
wrong phone number
wrong time to demand obedience
wrong abstract concept for control
wrong military operation
wrong spin tactic
wrong intelligence
wrong idea
wrong corporate memo
wrong cheese-filled pitchfork
wrong time to pretend it doesn't matter to you if you can afford it

what have you given up lately
to make someone else rich?

jed

12-11-2007, 05:15 PM

coro is right about leandro. 17 shots in 20 minutes is something we ought to complain about, especially when he ends up going 4 of those 17. when he's cold in the first 5 minutes, coach ought to bench him or demand he pass the ball. he forces shots and drives into the lane like he did 3 years ago when most of us wanted him traded. he's a veteran now. he's a 6th man of the year. he is better than the last sun who won that honor and got fat. what was his name? bosephus mcmidrange? leandro ought to do and know better. he better start thinking of the other guys.

boris needs to be fired. a team ought to be able to do that. a team should be allowed to just fire a guy, pay him a few weeks salary to be nice, and be done with him.

in reading coro's blog, it reminds me of a rant of mine but on a bunny slope scale of matterhorn ski hell visions on mushrooms. coro really held his shit back in that post. he laid out his research and with it, laid out his opinions of seeandthrow and boreus. i agree paul, they need to be smacked around and shown the light or the mud.

he slyly posits that we should have traded boris instead of thomas. who here would not welcome that today?

as i sit at home, reveling with mad dog in the conspiracy my boss defined to me today as he fired me with a great severance package, i offer some observations that might not always be cognizant to phoenix suns basketball:

i grow old. i grow old when the suns play like they could care less for the safety of their jobs, for the fans, for their loved ones, for their boss. the meeting last night after the game was between the bosses. wonder what they said. watch the suns closely in the next two games. what they spoke of will be acted out then. the bosses can't trade boris and you know they wish they could. but they can tell leandro to pass the fucking ball. they can tell amare to do more than look for the block. they can tell steve and grant to keep on keepin' on and buy them a drink and invite raja. leave everybody else alone. shawn is used to it and it will keep brian edgy.

from my speakers chris cornell is singing of the spires and the gables growing in orchards to the sky. it's a beautiful vision i ask you to look for where the blessings on our table multiply and divide. i think we'll be fine. how? we are pretenders to the throne. some day we will go from pretending, from acting out in response, to being champions. our best year to win it all in this run was our first year. three years later we find this year, dramatic, tired, expectant and my bet is that the suns will soon learn the killer instinct for the playoffs begins now. we really should be on a 7-game winning streak. but they don't know the killer instinct needs to last between games, not only within them. i think they will figure that out this year. if they don't, break it up. the challenges are no less daunting than any year before. they are more daunting. because of them, we must use them as the measure of what makes a true champion.

getting it easy is less than worthy of tears. it is less than worthy of blood. it is less than worthy of worship. and that is what we want. we want them all to bow before us. this team better realize that and man up or get blown up.

we can be lonely no more. is our salvation is near? it cannot go on like this forever. everything changes. nothing remains the same.

hang my head. drown my fear. 'till you all just disappear. black hole sun. won't you come and wash away the rain.

you don't throw your life away going inside. there will come a time when time goes out the window. if anything unfolds it's supposed to. you don't throw your time away sitting still. i had to consult some figures from the past. i've this night to unglue, doing things there's no reason to do.

that last paragraph was by john frusciante. yay for john frusciante.

go suns.

give banks boris's minutes. boris doesn't deserve them. wormwood, i pour whiskey on your amare trade ideas and light them on fire. superbone, dwyer had to be joking, at least that's what he's screaming as i slam his head against the wall with my thumbs deep in his eye sockets. jed? marion for ak?

hello, operator?
what's the number for 1-800-SPANKING?
um....

informer said "With that said," that means i post a poem. thems my rules. you can stop reading here if you want but this is called "bebop blues in a busted stereo speaker":

somebody stop me with a shopping cart from walmart
when the riots happen and i'm contemplating looting too
shake that thank you please i'll have another
when the police man wags his finger
like a big black stick
upon a big black head
mister city policeman wags my finger
you've been bad
see that line behind you
they are all gonna wail on you

walking nationwide boulevards of strip mall wannabe billboard signs
a fucking mile high
arg! screamed the sun
it's burger king!

what a great thing to be in love
to never care the sentence structure
remembering bukowski
when the spirit is lost
the form comes

time for another drink

walking streetside remembrance of alleyway drug deal fuck scenes
she wore her sunglasses at night, too
lying whore stole my money
i found her passed out at her kitchen table
four a.m. with her hand stuck in a jar of mayonnaise
i found her on the floor a few minutes later
when i pushed her there
that's what she got for coming after me

america is called the homeland now
that makes it amerika
with a k for hurt you too
like a hitler fantasy for the four times his dick ever got hard
its heartland
if the destiny of america can be nicknamed
if what she means to the world in times of darkness
can be reduced
it would be less frightening of world domination
at the expense of bill of rights gone wrong
wrong address
wrong phone number
wrong time to demand obedience
wrong abstract concept for control
wrong military operation
wrong spin tactic
wrong intelligence
wrong idea
wrong corporate memo
wrong cheese-filled pitchfork
wrong time to pretend it doesn't matter to you if you can afford it

what have you given up lately
to make someone else rich?

I thin anytime our sixth man is taking more shots than Amare, then we should have a problem. I don't care if he's making them or not.

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 05:19 PM

The only thing worse than trying to get through a rough stretch of games is doing so while attempting to muddle through all the inevitable and endless trade scenario droning that always follows.....

i never do this, but lol. that is what happened when i read this post.

wpmiller42

12-11-2007, 05:44 PM

He's too small to play SG, I really don't like him in that role either. And there is NOTHING more irritating than seeing him dribble the ball and point at his teammates, directing them on where to go as if he knows what he's doing.

I don't think he is too small to play SG. I can't think of a 2-guard that is faster than him, and Barbosa's defense has been pretty good overall. And if an opposing 2-guard is too much for LB, then switch Grant and LB on defense. Heck, that's probably a good idea regardless of whether or not LB can guard the 2.

AlanS

12-11-2007, 05:51 PM

[1] As ShelC said almost a week ago, we shouldn't to get too high or too low with respect to the Suns' performance the last few games. Just as it was premature to get so excited over the high octane road wins we had earlier; it's also too early to panic over these 2 losses.

It's important to distinguish between whether these games are signs of the Suns being a bad team, as opposed to, games which had some bad performances that hopefully won't be repeated again. Look at the Heat game, for example. That was a 4 pt loss, in a game where Nash was something like 4/13 from the field. Now, if Steve is gonna shoot like that the rest of the season - yeah, then the Suns have some real problems. But if you think his shooting will return to form, maybe you don't think you need to make sweeping changes just cause Steve had an off night.

I'd like to see some more games to see who is going tb consistent for us, and who's not. It seems like, more often than in previous years, more guys are having off nights more often. It's happened to Steve, Shawn, LB, Raja, Stat... due to injuries or whatever. When everybody plays to their full potential, the Suns can be a monster. But they must stop these nagging strings of inconsistent play on both sides of the floor.

[2] Here's the math I see:
• Suns gained Hill and Skinner;
• Suns lost KT, JR, and for all practical purposes... Diaw.

I don't think that's a good exchange.

Skinner, in the early going, is doing the kinds of things we got from Kurt. They are not the same player, they have different games, strengths, and weaknesses. But Brian does give the team a defensive presence inside, which is what we expected of him. Preliminarily, I would say adding Brian and losing Kurt is a wash.

Where it goes bad is, what's up with Boris? As I see it, Hill + Boris this season IS NO BETTER, AND MAYBE WORSE, than Boris at his best+ JR.

Bottom line is, Hill is giving us the things we hoped to see from Boris - scoring, passing, rebounding - but Boris himself is giving us nothing, or at least, every 5 of 6 games, he's gives us nothing.

Which basically means, the Suns are not any better now than they were last season. And maybe they are worse.

Maybe.

[3] This may sound crazy, but I think the Suns need games like these. Unlike the Spurs, and like the Mavs, the Suns are dealing with new faces, new chemistry, and have gone thru early season injury troubles. I think the team has yet to find it's best player rotations. There is still work to be done. I look forward to these next few games to see if the Suns can step up or not. I'm not panicking, yet... and I hope I won't have to in a few days.

BobbyDogg

12-11-2007, 05:55 PM

When the shooting goes south they need to feed Amare. Skinner in the starting lineup would take quite a bit of defensive pressure off Amare and possibly keep him from picking up so many fouls.

Diaw played great the year he won 6th man because it was a contract year, plain and simple. Atlanta had the same issue of "lack of passion and fire" when he was there which is why they were willing to give him to Phx.

If getting paid 9 million a year isn't enough motivation, I don't know what is.

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 05:58 PM

what's up with Boris? As I see it, Hill + Boris this season IS NO BETTER, AND MAYBE WORSE, than Boris at his best+ JR.

boris at his best? wasn't that may of 2006? 19 months ago? a full season and more passed? are we still pining for boris at his best? we ought to get over boris. he was a mistake to re-sign. it is time to realize that and move on.

ShelC

12-11-2007, 06:24 PM

[2] Here's the math I see:
• Suns gained Hill and Skinner;
• Suns lost KT, JR, and for all practical purposes... Diaw.

Yea, i dont know that Diaw fits into that equation. We didnt have him performing last year either, so its really about Hill and Skinner vs KT and JR. Skinner and KT are a wash. Both are able defenders, skinner has an edge with shotblocking and mobility, KT had the edge offensively with his jumper. JR vs Hill is no comparison. I really cant remember JR doing anything of note while he was here. His D was overrated, he never shot well despite whatever numbers you may come up with, he couldnt handle, and never fit in with the offense. With Hill and Skinner we're better.

Diaw played great the year he won 6th man because it was a contract year, plain and simple.

I dont believe that. He was starting at the 5 spot, getting consistent minutes and touches as the primary option in the frontcourt.

I thin anytime our sixth man is taking more shots than Amare, then we should have a problem. I don't care if he's making them or not.

This is hilarious to me because i was screaming about the same thing last year and it fell on deaf ears. Now hes turning the ball over and missing shtos for a few games and people are realizing that a 6-3 SG off the bench is getting more touches than our all-star, all-nba, franchise center.

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 06:26 PM

very lucid comments by Coro.

Barboso is a weapon, to be sure, but he's not Kobe. He sucks the lifeforce out of the offense and team in general when he's off. And what is wrong with him taking to the rim if his jumper isn't falling?

Diaw should be traded. I don't give a crap what he did almost two seasons ago. I understood he was signed as a fallback position should Amare not have recovered, but STAT has developed into sound offensive player.

I mentioned it in another thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing Diaw shipped to the Pacers for Troy Murphy. Murphy rebounds and is decent from the arc. He's 6-11 and probably would like some playing time. He's a bit injury prone, but Diaw doesn't play hard enough any more to worry about injuries. Screw him. I want the championship now, and people who don't want to give the effort should be shipped out.

I also saw some suggestions from trading Marion. WTF????? Shawn has been the Suns best defender this season, and some of you chowderheads want to trade him? Do you actually watch any of these games? Cheezus H. Jones.

Shabazz

12-11-2007, 06:35 PM

(First post)

A few thoughts -

I agree with AlanS that in comparing talent between this year and last, we're much better off. Skinner's proven to be almost, if not as important to our team as KT was, and while his post defense may be a bit of a step down, he brings an energy to the team every time he gets on the court that Kurt never did. Hill is a HUGE upgrade over Jr., who IMO was the worst shooting "shooter" in the L and didn’t bring much else to the table.

Regarding Diaw, one thing I haven't seen mentioned much was the impact Hill's addition has had on his production. He may have finally gotten used to Amare being the man in the high post (evidenced by his propensity for jacking 18-20 footers from the wing), but it seems that Hill has established himself as the primary point-forward on the team, leaving Boris without much of a role. It's on Diaw to figure out his niche on the team instead of constantly acquiescing to everyone else. Passing up open lay-ups doesn't seem to be helping.

It's amazing to see how much more Mike D is trusting Skinner over Diaw with every passing game.

I absolutely don't think we can overstate the impact Iavaroni had on our D. To that end I'm a little pissed we didn't hire Tom Thibodeau in the summer as a defensive specialist. He's really done amazing things in Boston. I'm not trying to diminish what Jay Humphries does, but I think we should have put more of an emphasis on hiring an assistant with a defensive background to replace Iavaroni over one who would relate well to Marcus Banks.

LB will be fine. He's a scorer and scorers go through ruts. Raja has his share of them too. The only way to come out of them is to shoot and the shots he was taking last night were really wide open.

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 06:38 PM

Welcome, ShaBazz. Interesting comments on Tom T. as possible assistant coach.

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 06:38 PM

I also saw some suggestions from trading Marion. WTF????? Shawn has been the Suns best defender this season, and some of you chowderheads want to trade him? Do you actually watch any of these games? Cheezus H. Jones.

i partied with him. he liked pepperoni pizza and light beer and the patriots. i had to walk away.

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 06:40 PM

No TurboDog for him, eh, 'homes?

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 06:45 PM

nope. nor workouts with tom thibodeau. he was looking for work this summer and we passed up on him. even in a crazy post i threw my hat in for him this summer. but it is much too late to bring up what coulda, shoulda been.

i really need the suns to win tomorrow. i don't know if they know how much it matters to some of us, but our lives ebb and flow sometimes in a confluent stream with their wins and losses. here's to being a fan of the most mind-boggling team in the nba.

Wormwood

12-11-2007, 06:47 PM

boris at his best? wasn't that may of 2006? 19 months ago? a full season and more passed? are we still pining for boris at his best? we ought to get over boris. he was a mistake to re-sign. it is time to realize that and move on.

I don't think the real Boris is coming back anymore. I dumped him for Yi Jianlin in my fantasy league.

As for Barbosa, he's OK as a SG against most guys in the league. He will struggle against big swing men like Harpring, but I can live with that given how nice his contract is. He has games like last night, but he can be a stone cold killer. LB's the least of my worries actually. Considering how much I used to detest the way he played, we seem to forget how far he's come. Trust me, he's making much better decisions, he's playing within his game, and his mid-range game has developed nicely, as has his defense. Seriously.

Skinner is a downgrade from KT, but only because of his FT shooting. I still like the guy because he D's up so hard and works his ass off, while quietly being as dirty as KT was.

Our offense is not the problem. It's the defense. The primary culprits are Amare, Nash, and D'Antoni. Hill is adequate. Raja, Marion, and Skinner are solid. Barbs can be OK. Banks isn't on the floor enough to blame him for anything. Amare is terrible at holding his position, and posting him is way too easy. Nash would be better off skipping the help defense, and just leting guys hold the post on their own. Skinner in particular.

Mike D.... what can I say? Shaq was killing us and Wade was getting deep in the lane, and it took him 19 minutes into the 1st half to even bring Skinner in. WTF? We could all see the energy he brings. Why not use it? Wouldn't it make sense to put a good post defender on their best post player? Wouldn't it make sense to keep Amare out of foul trouble by letting Skinner cover their best post player? In addition, this gambling, switching defense is crap. Decent shooting teams heat up fast, and then stay hot the whole game with wide open looks.

What's my recipe? Start Skinner. Bring Hill off the bench. Bring Tucker up from the D-league (where he's tearing it up), and bench Diaw's ass. Sign Elton Brown, or some other big man from the D-league (maybe). Ditch Banks for Giricek if we can. Ditch Diaw if at all possible (Dan Gadzuric?). Get another decent high energy big like Gadz, and run a more conventional (but high energy and athletic) front line that rotates three big men, and don't use Amare to guard guys in the post. Go back to man to man defense, and use Skinner and ? to try to stop their guys one on one. It worked great with KT anchoring the middle, and Marion and Bell shadowing other teams wings on the perimeter.

On a side note I was watching the game on NBA TV and they had one of those "Great Moments in NBA History" segues on, showing the Celtice in the early 80's. My daughter walks in and:

4 Year Old: "Daddy, who are those basketball players. Why are they dressed like that?"

Me: "They're the Boston Celtics. This recording is from a long time ago before you were born."

Her: "Oh. <Giggles> It looks like they're playing in their underwear."

DrSublime

12-11-2007, 06:49 PM

i really need the suns to win tomorrow. i don't know if they know how much it matters to some of us, but our lives ebb and flow sometimes in a confluent stream with their wins and losses. here's to being a fan of the most mind-boggling team in the nba.

tottaly agree

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 06:53 PM

4 Year Old: "Daddy, who are those basketball players. Why are they dressed like that?"

Me: "They're the Boston Celtics. This recording is from a long time ago before you were born."

Her: "Oh. <Giggles> It looks like they're playing in their underwear."

that's where misteradiant shows up with a box of g-strings, a six pack, and a bank account she can't open 'till 18. no wait, that's quagmire. i was channeling quagmire....

anyway, you're trade-happy, wormwood. settle down. we have to focus on what we can do, which is use our bench. nobody wants boris.

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 06:54 PM

Skinner is a downgrade from KT, but only because of his FT shooting. I still like the guy because he D's up so hard and works his ass off, while quietly being as dirty as KT was. --ww

I would argue that it makes him just equal to KT. Skinner is younger, stronger and a bit better shotblocker. KT was getting brittle in his old age. Skinner's midrange jumper has proven to be a revelation. And the contract is a bargain. He's Mark West/s doppelganger ...

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 06:55 PM

that's where misteradiant shows up with a box of g-strings --MR

Not for me, thank you. I'd look like a Bartlett pear with a rubber band and a beard...

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 06:58 PM

that's where misteradiant shows up with a box of g-strings --MR

Not for me, thank you. I'd look like a Bartlett pear with a rubber band and a beard...

i can see the stop-motion animation on youtube now.

bow chicka wow wow.

LazarusLong

12-11-2007, 07:00 PM

Christian fundamentalists shit themselves like drunken monkeys after too much Taco Bell ...

1tinsoldier

12-11-2007, 07:03 PM

if anyone remembers my "barbosa sucks/brazilian blunder" rants of the past you would never guess I would come to his defense. But he is now at the point that he does help more than he hurts and when you have a weapon like him you have to use it. To my surprise, he has proven that he can get smarter at this game and it is reasonable to assume he can gain a better understanding of when to holster his firearm. That's what the coaches are for.

Diaw, I always liked for the opposite reason. He is masterful at keeping his weapon in check and filling in some gaps so that the big guns can get off their shots. But, of course, he is trigger shy.

Barbosa and Diaw need to rub off on each other.

misteradiant

12-11-2007, 07:05 PM

Christian fundamentalists shit themselves like drunken monkeys after too much Taco Bell ...

the next movie directed by michael bay! except the monkeys drive fast cars with laser guns and taco bell hq is where the liberty bell is now. it's a war between pepsi and coke! but christian fundamentalists still crap themselves. that sells.

BORISDIAW4MVP

12-11-2007, 08:06 PM

.

Barbosa and Diaw need to rub off on each other.

I'm just going ot leave that alone...

sunsdotcom

12-11-2007, 08:14 PM

I thin anytime our sixth man is taking more shots than Amare, then we should have a problem. I don't care if he's making them or not.

I don't have any problem with the barbosa taking more shots that amare. barbosa's primarily a hired gun. he's not like larry bird or kidd where he can contribute in other ways like rebounding, passing of defense if the shots aren't falling.

DrSublime

12-11-2007, 08:43 PM

sehan

12-11-2007, 08:58 PM

I don't have any problem with the barbosa taking more shots that amare. barbosa's primarily a hired gun. he's not like larry bird or kidd where he can contribute in other ways like rebounding, passing of defense if the shots aren't falling.

That's just ridiculous. Since, I can't do anything else, I am just going to keep shooting even though I can't make shit today. Is that your logic? So when Pike is on the floor we should have him take all the shots.

Look I don't hate Barbosa, I don't want him traded, and I do think he helps us. But I do want him to play smarter and within himself. If the shots are not falling, pass it or take it to the hole. Don't just keep doing shit that aint working.... that stubbornness is what Mike is preaching and is causing us to look dumb and old.

Additionally, just cause Amare is 6.10 and can do those other things, doesn't mean he should shoot less than Barbosa. Amare shoots highest field goal % on the team; inside scoring loosens the opposing defense; and gets the other big man in foul trouble.

Next time Barbosa points to the floor and tells Amare to set a screen, Amare shoot slap that hand away.... I have yet to see Barbosa pass out of that pick and role.

sunsdotcom

12-11-2007, 09:18 PM

That's just ridiculous. Since, I can't do anything else, I am just going to keep shooting even though I can't make shit today. Is that your logic? So when Pike is on the floor we should have him take all the shots

You're just as ridiculous. Who are you anyway? Are you a better shooter and scorer than barbosa at the NBA level? Or even Piatkowski? And I don't have a problem with Piatkowski taking jumpers if that's what the defense allows. he's paid to shoot standstill jumpers, and if you don't trust his game, then don't play him.

re Barbosa... He does one thing, and he does it really well, and that's to shoot and score. So I don't have any problems with barbosa taking more shots than amare every now and then. you take the good with the bad, and the good usually outweighs the bad.

I prefer Amare scoring more pts, but honestly it doesn't really matter all that much to me who takes more shots between amare and barbosa, because both are great scorers (although amare is still not 100%).

SpecialSauce

12-11-2007, 09:50 PM

Barbosa shoots a way lower percentage than Amare, and he forces a LOT.

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 09:54 PM

anyone watch the Raptors/Hawks game..
Hawks lost which is wonderful.. but..

TJ Ford, after taking a big hit directly to his face, by Al Horford, fell to the ground, his head bounced off the court and then was writhting in pain.. he had to be carried off the court on a stretcher.... so sad to see anyone get hurt but for another potential major neck injury, this could end TJ's carrear..

for those who didnt see the video, when Al Horford hit TJ on the face, TJ was in front of Horford so horfods hand came over top of TJ's head, his palm hit him in the face and then snapped his neck/head back.
looked vicious and intentional, but UNINTENTIALLY that bad .

I did not watch the game, but I watched SC on espn and they showed the replay couple of times. That is a horrible injury. I think TJ's career might be over. He had neck surgery in 2004, and now he has this spinal (I think) injury. They said he has feeling in his hands and feet, which is a relief. Still, I don't see him back to the NBA. This is sad because he was playing so well for Toronto.

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 10:05 PM

sunsdotcom

12-11-2007, 10:06 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/steve_aschburner/12/11/suns/index.html

Penny wise and rebound foolish
Suns pick wrong time to play business over basketball
Posted: Tuesday December 11, 2007 3:14PM; Updated: Tuesday December 11, 2007 4:51PM

It is hard to harbor a discouraging thought about the Phoenix Suns, considering how much sweetness and light they shed on the NBA through frosty winter months.

Steve Nash is one of the league's poster guys for likability, a David-takes-on-Goliath tale 82 times each season and a player whose split nose and Robert Horry-authored check into the scorer's table in last spring's playoffs only enhanced Nash's reputation as one tough, nervy son of a gun.

Shawn Marion, beyond his extreme and unorthodox physical skills, is almost amusingly neurotic in feeling underappreciated, despite four trips to the All-Star Game, his reputation as the game's best inch-for-inch rebounder and a $16.4 million salary that is $3 million more than what Joe Johnson got, without having to go to Atlanta.

Amaré Stoudemire plays with a glassy-eyed ferocity that can be downright frightening at times. Leandro Barbosa is the NBA's Cool Papa Bell, so damn fast he can turn off the lights and be in the shower before the gym gets dark.

Raja Bell comes across as one of the game's smartest and edgiest players, alternately defending his man right to the brink of physical mayhem and then lobbying the referees between plays on the why and the how of what he just did. Then there is head coach Mike D'Antoni, refreshing among his NBA brethren for not having his ego or his job security bound up in defensive statistics, the easiest thing for a coach to control if he's willing to wring possessions out of the clock and fun out of the game.

So it's hard to root against Phoenix and its scoreboard-challenging style even in the teensiest of ways. And yet, based on what we saw in their back-to-back losses to the Minnesota Timberwolves on Saturday and the Miami Heat on Monday, as well as in their four previous defeats, the Suns deserve a little scorn now that their slip is showing.

Let the record show that, in the latest issue of Forbes, the Suns and majority owner Robert Sarver are featured as part of the magazine's coverage of NBA franchise valuations. Sarver's business acumen gets an abundance of credit for the Suns' rise from $401 million in 2004 (the price Sarver and other investors paid for the team and its arena) to a current $449 million, eighth highest in the NBA. The club, by Forbes' estimates, generated revenue of $145 million in 2006-07 with operating income of $37 million, nearly four times the league average.

Sarver and his group are given credit for signing Nash as a free agent from Dallas for $65 million, the singular stroke in the Suns' rebirth on the court, and sinking another $150 million or so into contract extensions for other players. They spruced up their building with $70 million in renovations, Forbes reports, allowing them to quadruple VIP seating that brings in as much as $1,500 per fanny per game. They sell out every game these days and capped season-ticket sales at 15,000.

And still, Kurt Thomas had to go.

Thomas, the starch in the Suns' shorts the previous two seasons, was traded in July to Seattle along with first-round draft picks in 2008 and 2010 for a conditional second-rounder at some point in the future. Huh? That's right, Thomas -- a wily 35-year-old with an intimidating glare and the backbone to Phoenix's modest interior defense -- was deemed expendable in an obvious salary dump. His $8 million was going to cost the Suns more like $16 million, factoring in the 2-for-1 penalty of the luxury tax, a line in the desert sand from which Sarver and crew determinedly backpedaled over the summer.

Instead of keeping Thomas, who brought courage and wisdom beyond his stats, on the court and off, new general manager Steve Kerr had to duct-tape the void with journeyman Brian Skinner on a one-year, $1.1 million contract. What has gone on since hasn't exactly been Skinner's fault -- he had nine rebounds off the bench in Minneapolis on Saturday and had the Suns' broadcast crew sounding a little giddy with his active 13-point performance in the loss to Miami -- but it has exposed Sarver for his unwillingness to throw good money after grand.

The Timberwolves destroyed Phoenix inside with a 55-33 rebounding advantage, driven not only by big bodies Al Jefferson (20 boards) and Craig Smith (eight) but also by rookie Corey Brewer's Matrix-like 11 and Ryan Gomes' seven. Marion (six) and Stoudemire (five) topped the Suns starters on the glass, in what admittedly was the finale of a weeklong road trip and fourth game in five nights.

The same mitigating factors in Phoenix's 100-93 loss to the team with the worst record in the Western Conference were at play, in the Suns' favor, against the Heat. Miami had been working its way to and down the West Coast, playing six times in nine nights, gone from south Florida since the end of November. Yet the team with the worst record in the East outrebounded Phoenix 46-29, shot 59 percent, scored 117 points and salvaged a 2-4 mark from its trip.

The Heat's starting front line of Shaquille O'Neal, Udonis Haslem and Dorell Wright had a 35-18 edge on the boards over Phoenix's frontcourt starters. That pushed a growing rebound disparity to a glaring minus-82 in the Suns' six losses. That's an average of 13.7, in a category in which they've been beaten five of six times.

Thomas? No one is suggesting that he would have improved dramatically on his numbers (4.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg) from last season. But he has been helping the Sonics since recovering from a hamstring injury, with 18 rebounds against Indiana two weeks ago and 56 in his last five games, including 12 points and 10 boards in a victory Sunday over New Orleans. Beyond that, even if Thomas wasn't likely to transform himself into Nate Thurmond or even Marcus Camby, he did fit with Phoenix and played bigger than his listed size of 6-foot-9, 230 pounds.

It was the wrong place to scrimp for this team that relies so much on jump shots and needs to reclaim as many misses as possible, both to reload and to unleash its break. When Phoenix is on, it dictates the flow, with opposing big men struggling to defend against Stoudemire out on the floor and Marion all over. But when Phoenix is off -- scoring only 13 points in the final quarter Saturday, trailing for good after six minutes Monday -- the burden shifts and its lack of conventional big men hurts. And if this is a problem in the regular season, just wait until everyone's gears grind more deliberately in the postseason.

Before the Miami game, Stoudemire told the Arizona Republic: "It's still not my favorite thing. Don't get it twisted, but this is my job. I'm the only guy who can really play the center position right now from a starting position. ... I definitely need a little help down in the paint.''

The message the Phoenix ownership sent with its cost-cutting move on Thomas, at a time when the team should be chasing a title yesterday, was equally damaging. It's hard, in retrospect, to take seriously the Kevin Garnett-to-the-Suns rumors from last summer, given Garnett's salary and subsequent contract extension. Too bad -- Stoudemire had his best rebounding season in 2006-07, grabbing 786. Garnett, at age 30 last year, gathered 792 defensive rebounds, and 975 overall.

Asked Saturday about the brief offseason glimmer of playing with Garnett, Nash, 33, sounded more dour with each word. "A lot of things have to happen for something like that to go down,'' he said. "And we probably didn't have the" -- Nash paused -- "financials to make it happen.''

The folks at Forbes say they do, with a franchise value that ranks eighth, a player payroll that ranks 10th ($71.3 million) and an urgency to win now that should rank second to none.

After Monday's loss, D'Antoni, Kerr and Sarver huddled in a long meeting, according to the Arizona Republic. This is the same Sarver who has weight-loss mogul Jenny Craig among his minority investors, maybe providing a little too much influence in leaning down the operating costs.

"I like competition,'' Sarver was quoted as saying in the business magazine. "If you like competition, owning a professional sports team is the ultimate.''

It can be, if you're willing to buy a few more rebounds.

Steve Aschburner covered the Minnesota Timberwolves and the NBA for 13 seasons for the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He has served as president or vice president of the Professional Basketball Writers Association since 2005.

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 10:21 PM

Excellent article. It was obvious that Sarver chose the most inopportune time to save money by dumping a player like KT.

Tonight I was watching Sports center on espn. They were talking about Golden state's improvement ever since Steven Jackson returned to the team. They started winning, but it wasn't because of his offense. They said GS is winning because they improved their DEFENSE.

However, we have a coach that underestimates defense. A team does not improve simply by a coach saying- "we need to play better defense". It takes certain kinds of players to do it. Amare is naturally an offensive player. His defense will always be mediocre. He is more valuable as an offensive machine. KT's specialty was defense and it was obvious against SA in particular how important that skill was. Agreed that we did not need him against teams like Memphis or Charlotte. The Suns never focused on signing strong defensive players because Dantoni believed they could win with offense alone. Sarver was more than happy to dump a key player to save money. I felt sick when the KT trade took place.

Considering how narrow the Suns window is, it would have been smart to trade Amare for Garnett. The Suns could have won an NBA title in that narrow window. I don't see a title in their future. I am not saying this because of the last two losses. The writing has been on the wall for sometime. Unless Dantoni changes the way he approaches the game, it is not going to happen.

sehan

12-11-2007, 10:28 PM

You're just as ridiculous. Who are you anyway? Are you a better shooter and scorer than barbosa at the NBA level? Or even Piatkowski?

Ugh... who are you any way? That is your response??? LOL - I think I better just shut up because I can't play basketball as good as Piatkowski can.

Going back to basketball. I don't mind Barbosa scoring either, but common sense dictates that Amare shooting with higher FG % should shoot more for the betterment of the team, especially when the rest of the team is having hard time scoring. Isn't that what franchise big man is for? When your shots aren't falling, you rely on your big man to go get you couple of high percentage shots or get fouled.

I am not bashing Barbosa, but only our offensive philosophy that is apparently ok with and encourages Barbosa bricking 3s even in the 4th quarter. I am all for team play and having fun, but when it comes to crunch time and we need to execute, I want the ball in the hands of Amare or Nash.

Even in the early game, as I said before, getting Amare going early opens up things for everyone else. No sane reason why Barbosa needs to be our first offensive option.

sehan

12-11-2007, 10:35 PM

I agree as well, great article and too bad Saver didn't go for it this year.

However, if their estimates are correct, it is sort of understandable why he wanted him cut. Thomas would have cost him $16M, approximately 45% of last years profits. Given that Thomas is not an incremental revenue generator, he would have had to eat that cost.

As much as I want a ring, I can't say I would put up half of my annual income to get a ring.....

To be honest, their estimated profits are a lot lower than what I generally thought an NBA teams makes.

JediSkywalker

12-11-2007, 11:01 PM

I am sure their estimates are conservative. With the higher ticket prices (they raise them every year) and so many fans buying the Suns merchandize they must make pretty good profit. If the Suns make it to the NBA finals, they will make tons more of profits- may be Sarver did not realize that.

desertcoast

12-11-2007, 11:24 PM

That article's attempt to link the current defensive rut with the KT trade and Sarver's business approach is a stretch.

While it's cathartic to lash out at the cheap banker, KT would not be making a difference right now.
He wouldn't see much court time, and there's no way in hell KT *and* Skinner would have been on the roster ( or the court) at the same time.

Sarver is not the problem right now.

A) Players who are underachieving

B) A coach who is struggling to manage underachieving players.

JediSkywalker

12-12-2007, 12:08 AM

I disagree to some extent. I think the coach is a major part of the problem.

12-12-2007, 12:26 AM

[3] This may sound crazy, but I think the Suns need games like these. Unlike the Spurs, and like the Mavs, the Suns are dealing with new faces, new chemistry, and have gone thru early season injury troubles. I think the team has yet to find it's best player rotations. There is still work to be done. I look forward to these next few games to see if the Suns can step up or not. I'm not panicking, yet... and I hope I won't have to in a few days.

Alan - the voice of reason.

That being said, I think that Diaw needs a change of scenery. He's redundant with Grant Hill around.

And maybe it is time to start Barbosa. He seems to do well in this role, playing with Nash (so he can't jack up every shot).

sunsdotcom

12-12-2007, 12:33 AM

Injury bug takes bite out of Jazz
By Tim Buckley
Deseret Morning News
Published: Wednesday, Dec. 12, 2007 12:26 a.m. MST
0 comments
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The Jazz had some injury to go with the insult of their 97-89 loss to Portland on Tuesday night.

Backup center Jarron Collins exited with seven-and-a-half minutes to go in the final quarter and took a couple stitches to close a cut over his right eyebrow.

Starting center Mehmet Okur was struck on the left shoulder by Trail Blazers big man Joel Przybilla with 4:47 remaining in the third quarter and left with a strained trapezius — the large muscle spanning the neck, shoulder and back.

He sat with a pad over the shoulder for the rest of the night.

And starting small forward Andrei Kirilenko was struck on the bridge of the nose after bumping heads with Portland's Channing Frye.

Kirilenko said he was disoriented for a few moments, but later was prepared to return. None of the three, however, re-entered the game after getting hurt.

All three, though, will be available to play when the Jazz visit Phoenix tonight, the Jazz announced after Tuesday's loss.

WHO SAID IT? The quote: "Our defense isn't very good. We'll have to be a better defensive team when we play better teams or they'll run all over us."

Who said it?

No, it was not coach Jerry Sloan talking about his Jazz — though it easily could have been.

Story continues below
Rather, it was ex-Jazz shooting guard Raja Bell talking to the Arizona Republic about his Suns — Utah's opponent tonight in the back set of a back-to-back set. High-scoring Phoenix lost two straight and yielded 100-plus points in each of its last nine outings.

Nate

12-12-2007, 02:25 AM

I absolutely don't think we can overstate the impact Iavaroni had on our D. To that end I'm a little pissed we didn't hire Tom Thibodeau in the summer as a defensive specialist. He's really done amazing things in Boston. I'm not trying to diminish what Jay Humphries does, but I think we should have put more of an emphasis on hiring an assistant with a defensive background to replace Iavaroni over one who would relate well to Marcus Banks.

I agree that we should have chosen a more defensive minded assistant coach, but I have to disagree on the take that Iavaroni had that big of an impact on our D. Lets take a look at Memphis to compare their D under Iavaroni against the Suns D. Memphis games are played with fewer possesions but Memphis still let their opponents score more and shoot higher percentages in FTs, FGs and 3FGs. The only thing they do better is rebound a little better. These numbers dont really convince me of Iavaronis defensive philosophy.

ShelC

12-12-2007, 08:48 AM

The player take their cue from the head coach. I dont think MarcI had much, if any, impact on our defense. He was responsible for scouting and preparing the team for our main WC rivals. But he wasnt cracking the whip on guys for not playing defense. I dont think our defense has changed much at all this year. KT helped our team defense a ton by being in position to deny penetration, but that came from his defensive mindset, not by any scheme created by MarcI.

MikeD wants his players scoring, not locking down on D. They play hard on defense for the most part, but our philosophy is to win with offense. That comes from the head coach.

jed

12-12-2007, 09:19 AM

A few thoughts.

First, Jermaine O'Neal makes no sense for us. I can see making a move for a big, but it's not him.

As far as trading Marion, I'm not surprised to see the standard response of "why would you trade him?" when it was being discussed. For me, it's pretty simple. I don't believe he's a cornerstone for this team anymore. I won't lie -- certainly his commentary nudged me in that direction. But I also look at his numbers this season -- most notably that they are a little down -- and I see a guy that isn't really able to pur his heart and soul into it, despite his public assurance that he would do so.

ShelC

12-12-2007, 09:39 AM

jed

12-12-2007, 10:24 AM

ShelC

12-12-2007, 10:29 AM

His presences definitely helps, but i still worry about a few things: relying on him too much to pick up that slack and play those heavy minutes every night; his overall speed and ability to get out on the break; and ability to swtich around defensively and cover quicker PGs or bigger PFs/Cs. With a legit big added, maybe he doesnt have to worry about guarding bigger frontcourt players, but Shawn still has immense value guarding the TPs, BenGordons, and JTs of the world.

If we got back Granger or Shawn Williams in the deal, i'd be more open to it but i doubt the pacers would throw one of those guys in with JO. I like Marquis Daniels and the usns have shown interest in him, but he couldnt takes shawns place in the running game. Not a whole lot of guys can, but Granger or Williams would at least give us some young, athletic depth to work with and throw out there.

INFORMER

12-12-2007, 11:04 AM

I think JO would be a good fit here if only for defensive purposes.

No matter what, the Suns are an offensive team, and Jermaine O'Neal is brutal on the offensive end. The Pacers are a better team without. And FYI, his rebounding has been awful of late.

If we got back Granger or Shawn Williams in the deal, i'd be more open to it

That would require the Suns moving Amare (at least in the case of acquiring Granger).

ShelC

12-12-2007, 11:20 AM

No matter what, the Suns are an offensive team

Exactly. Making such a big personnel change would require an overhaul in our philosophy and thats not feasible in the middle of a season. We'd be best served looking to tweak the roster and find that shooter and/or open court player. We need a JJax type of acquisition in the worst way.

INFORMER

12-12-2007, 12:06 PM

We need a JJax type of acquisition in the worst way.

AGREED.

12-12-2007, 12:58 PM

Let's worry about ditching Diaw first. Unless people think a Marion trade will make Diaw pick up the slack.

INFORMER

12-12-2007, 01:22 PM

Let's worry about ditching Diaw first. Unless people think a Marion trade will make Diaw pick up the slack.

I'm not crazy about the prospect of shipping Marion out and leaving Diaw here.

Shabazz

12-12-2007, 01:26 PM

I agree that we should have chosen a more defensive minded assistant coach, but I have to disagree on the take that Iavaroni had that big of an impact on our D. Lets take a look at Memphis to compare their D under Iavaroni against the Suns D. Memphis games are played with fewer possesions but Memphis still let their opponents score more and shoot higher percentages in FTs, FGs and 3FGs. The only thing they do better is rebound a little better. These numbers dont really convince me of Iavaronis defensive philosophy.

I don't know that we can compare the two. I Actually think that we have better personnel on the defensive end than Memphis. Gasol seems a step slow this year, Damon Stoudamire is probably worse than Nash, and Milicic's shot blocking numbers are a little deceiving (good weak-side help defender, not great one-on-one - a la Amare). Gay has a lot of defensive potential but isn't the rebounder he should be. Their best defensive player is probably Lowry. He's a tough SOB. The problem is that they play him a lot in tandem with Navarro and that leaves them very small in the backcourt.

Either way, my point was more along the lines of what you mentioned - that when Iavaroni was with us, his role was to be THE defensive guy and we should have replaced him with someone similar. Not the biggest deal in the world, but something that probably has had some impact.

Shabazz

12-12-2007, 01:56 PM

The catch with trading shawn is that we either need a legit running SF in return or we need slow it down and play a halfcourt game. Shawn is the only guy left on the team that allows us to run the break with Stevie at the pace we want to.

I think JO would be a good fit here if only for defensive purposes. JO isnt the athlete he was, but if we could play him at the 5 spot, slide amare back to the 4 (or just swtich them back and forth depending on matchups), we take the onus off of Amare defensively, we get a legit low post defender, rebounder and shotblocker that Amare isnt and we get a guy that can play with his back to the basket or hit the 18footer which allows Amare to play his game inside or out as well. We're asking Amare to do all of those things by himself. Even if JOs offense isnt there on a particular night, he has the ability to focus on rebounding or defending the paint and making an impact on that end of the floor, instead of just being useless on both ends.

I also have mixed feelings about a trade for JO. He doesn't seem to be a good fit on Indy right now and is clearly unhappy so it's one of the few trade scenarios out there where we may have a little leverage. A starting lineup of Foster, Marion, Granger, Dunleavy and Tinsley might be appealing to them.

I think Marion AND Barbosa is too much to give up. Losing both those guys would completely change the complexion of the team. We'd be losing our 2 fastest players.

I'm also in no rush to trade Marion period. Obviously Diaw should be the one to go, but he's a BYC player and he's got ZERO value at this point. Charlotte is desperate for a big. Maybe we can exploit that.

Superbone

12-12-2007, 02:58 PM

I'm not crazy about the prospect of shipping Marion out and leaving Diaw here.

That's WAY too big of a chance to take.

desertcoast

12-12-2007, 03:00 PM

That's WAY too big of a chance to take.

agreed.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that Diaw's 05/06 season was an anomaly.

jed

12-12-2007, 03:02 PM

I'm not crazy about the prospect of shipping Marion out and leaving Diaw here.

Not to be cute, but I'd get used to the idea. No way Diaw's tradeable right now.

Billyjoejimbob

12-12-2007, 03:12 PM

The thing that bothers me most about the play in the last couple of games is lack of effort. Nobody got double digit rebounds in either of those games. How does that happen? The only reason I can see for that is laziness. Rebounds are about effort, and when you don't put in the effort to keep the other team from getting double the amount of rebounds you got, you aren't going to win. They can play good defense for one posession and then they give the other team 1 or 2 more tries because they don't get the rebound.

sunsdotcom

12-12-2007, 07:42 PM

The catch with trading shawn is that we either need a legit running SF in return or we need slow it down and play a halfcourt game. Shawn is the only guy left on the team that allows us to run the break with Stevie at the pace we want to.

Grant Hill has more legit Small Forward Skills than Shawn Marion. Marion looks like your typical SF, but he rebounds like a PF--and shoots and handles the ball like one too.

He may be fast, but his speed is somewhat diminished by his (lack of) ballhandling skills and he relies too much on the nash feed during fastbreak situations. In the open court, I would actually rather have the "slower" Manu Ginobili than Marion. I don't think our game slows down at all if we have an Odom at PF instead of Marion. What he lacks in speed (vis-a-vis marion) is made up by his ability advance the ball quickly in the open court by himself with ease.

quick athletic small forwards are the easiest positions to fill. just ask golden state.

SpecialSauce

12-13-2007, 12:06 AM

God how I would love Josh Smith on this team. His athleticism would be NUTS!!!!!!!!!!

scosuns

12-13-2007, 03:53 PM

Josh Smith would be awesome to have on this team. But I think the Hawks are not going to trade him for a guy who's going to be turning 30.

ShelC

12-13-2007, 04:21 PM

Josh Smith is a Grade A knucklehead with no maturity.

scosuns

12-13-2007, 04:26 PM

He is very athletic, seems to be getting a better understanding of the same, and can be physical. Also, he is young. I would say he would be a nice fill in. Of course he wouldn't be the same as Marion, but, we need athletic people in this style.

wpmiller42

12-13-2007, 05:18 PM

Honestly, as nice as josh smith is, I'd much rather make a play for Gerald Green this off-season. The wolves didn't extend him, and aren't playing him much either right now. The guy can jump out of the gym, is a good defensive player, and a decent mid-range jumpshot.

We'd probably get him for a bargain.

BigLewy

12-13-2007, 05:56 PM

Since Foye is out much longer than expected-Banks for Green. :lol:

misteradiant

12-14-2007, 05:31 PM

That being said...

sorry it took me a copule of days to find that. it's now misteradiant poetry corner, aka the just kill the thread already will ya minute.

the news from priceline:

narcissistic trainway brainwave
on the television end of receiving
sixteen fast images for you with every line of hunger
for the dogbite hairsoup of my emotional makeup
from the commercial edit room
how can we use his death for our gain?

shakeup emotions of a fan of crocodiles
she cries

she sent me astrology
the myth before science
and you tell me the quantum isn't magic
for your lack of a dream journal
from your smackdown metaphor bling
as she plays the piano man like a love song from god to the ocean
swaying

the atomic bomb of the masses destroyed
al qaeda and airplanes flying tragic anniversary
let's have a party for the pipeline oil rig junkie lips
we call the president
blabbing mind control repetition in front of the fireman's league
what makes him so dangerous is the number of people who believe
pop them all off with a tommy gun
you stupid blam blam blam
business is fun
when its kill kill kill
the good of the many will bow to the one

mister's pox got nuthin' on me

capitalistic trainwave brainway
flying high in the air
transmission complete

over the white noise din of a hundred thousand screaming corporate actor spokesmen
your voice is heard
his hands are bruised from wringing
and weak
silly burning bush
the fish is for jesus
not a handshake

agreed.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that Diaw's 05/06 season was an anomaly.

let us not think that his three nice plays against utah warrant any kind of error in that thought. shawn marion makes three mistakes in a game. steve can have many more. but what they do is have more than three nice plays in a game.

really misteradiant? well, maybe....

getting an o-bound that results in two points plus two and-threes should be something any team fears boris could to to them in an eight-minute span. if boris could play like he did for those eight minutes for twenty, i'd say we win the championship this year. anybody disagree with that? it would be interesting to see what reasons you'd give that adding a boris who got 16 and 10 would not be enough to challenge and defeat all teams incuding san antonio and boston in that order this spring.

and didn't we have a 4 or 5-post "lets get josh smith" moment in the past week or two? anything different happen or did we again realize how immature it is to pine for players we have no chance or ever getting? this isn't a fantasy league message board. it is about a specific team. try to stick with that, kids. try joining a fantasy league and getting those jollies out there because you know there's some dumbass that'll trade you josh and solomon jones for banks.