Sunday's News: Redefining "passive"

[SwingMan]

Diaw's selflessness an asset to Suns (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1124suns1125.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/pics/1125sunsdiaw.jpg
Boris Diaw drives to the basket in Phoenix on Nov. 13.

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 24, 2007 06:38 PM

With forward Grant Hill fitting in nicely, the Suns have five scorers averaging between 15 and 19 points.

The other rotation players don't have to score. Guard Raja Bell's shooting acumen and center Brian Skinner's opportunistic offense are gravy to go with their defense.

So when reserve forward Boris Diaw is not as aggressive as fans would like, coach Mike D'Antoni does not see that as a team detriment.

"He's a big part of what we do," D'Antoni said. "It's like when you make a nice pie. Not everybody can be the cherries or the sugar or whatever. Somebody has to do all of the other stuff. He does everything else."

Diaw set a season high for rebounds (11) Friday and added four assists. As the first big man off the bench, his ability to hold his own on defense and the boards while passing out of the post and the two-man game is what the Suns need.

It still won't soothe fans who seethe each time Diaw passes when he is unguarded, but that is his selfless game.

He worked well with center Amaré Stoudemire on Friday in a two-minute first-half stint. They each had steals, and Diaw made two assertive moves.

In the first year of a five-year, $45 million deal, Diaw is averaging 8.5 points, 5.1 rebounds and 4.1 assists after moving to the bench. He still averages 31 minutes.

After two years of shooting better than 50 percent, Diaw is at 45.8 percent this month. Otherwise, his November numbers are on par with 2006-07.

Diaw said his active role Friday was a result of a faster pace. His season's best home ovation came Friday when he grabbed two offensive rebounds in a row and drew a foul on a drive.

"Nothing special, as usual," he said.

[SwingMan]

In other news, Mark "fuck everyone else, whatever's good for the Mavericks" Cuban filed a protest over the Mavericks' loss to Indiana the other night.

You know, it's bullshit like this that really hurts legit claims:


Dallas Mavericks file protest over loss to Pacers (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/basketball/mavs/stories/112507dnspomavsdate.3750b371.html)

01:06 AM CST on Sunday, November 25, 2007
By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News
esefko@dallasnews.com

MILWAUKEE – The Mavericks know that protesting a loss won't change anything about their 111-107 loss to Indiana on Friday.

But if it draws more attention to what the Mavericks view as incorrect officiating and leads to change, then it will be worth the effort.
Swing's note: Home much? :roll:

They filed an official protest with NBA officials Saturday about the loss to the Pacers. At issue was a 3-pointer by Troy Murphy that came early in the second quarter. Owner Mark Cuban said the referees were alerted to the fact that Murphy was inside the arc.

"[The] official scorer said he notified the crew, and no action was taken," Cuban said. "We are protesting that a correctible error was not corrected."

The lead referee Friday was Bennett Salvatore, who has a history of controversy with the Mavericks. He also made one of the most curious calls of the night on a fast break by Devin Harris, on which a non-shooting foul was called. That play was not included in the Mavericks' protest, nor were many others.

"We didn't protest any other calls, but we certainly questioned quite a few that went for us and against us," Cuban said.

Avery Johnson was ejected in the game, and Dirk Nowitzki and Murphy received technical fouls.

Most likely, the protest will yield no satisfaction for the Mavericks, other than peace of mind. The most extreme action would be replaying the rest of the game from the point that the incident occurred. But even Cuban admitted that's not the point.

"It puts it on record that it happened," Cuban said. "Hopefully it will lead to procedures being put in place by the league to keep this from happening again."

League officials did not respond to emails Saturday night.

[zara_drummer]

Cuban is a douche...why protest one call when you lost the game by 4 points?? Fine take that 3 away and they still lose by 2!! LOL

I think Cuban has a personal vendetta against Benett Salvatore...wouldnt you agree?

Ref's miss calls all the time...How many times have we seen a 3 changed to a 2 etc...this kinda stuff happens all the time. its 1 god damn point!! The Mavs still lost the game...blah blah blah

[sunsdotcom]

Speed not good for Clippers center Kaman
Joe Stevens, Staff writer
Article Last Updated: 11/24/2007 11:15:38 PM PST

LOS ANGELES - An assumption might be made that Chris Kaman must love to play against small, speedy lineups. As a 7-foot center, Kaman's eyes could light up when he's defended by players smaller than him.

But that is not how he feels. Small, speedy teams, such as Phoenix and Golden State, annoy him and tire him out.

"I hate the running teams," he said.

A residual effect of playing a running team was a big question mark for Saturday night's game against New Orleans because it was a back-to-back after playing the previous night in Phoenix, where he was gassed in the second half.

"You can tell, usually the second night in back-to-backs, when I play a lot, my shooting percentage falls a little bit," Kaman said. "Being tired has something to do with it. I thought I conditioned myself well this summer, and I still think I'm in pretty good shape."

Coach Mike Dunleavy admitted he made a mistake by playing Kaman too much in the first half against the Suns, setting up a difficult second half for the big man. He played 20 minutes in the first half.

"I think he can handle 40 minutes in a game," Dunleavy said. "But I don't think he can handle 40 minutes against the Suns with their pace of game, the way they were running the floor. I got caught up in the fact we had stuff going good, and I didn't want to go away from it. I wanted to keep the game tight, and we did."

When Kaman got tired, that became obvious to many, including the


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coach.

"You could just tell with his free-throw shooting," Dunleavy said. "He's been shooting free throws great, and the guy winds up going 5 of 10 from the free-throw line. And he missed a lot of shots that were really his shots. I attribute that to legs."

Kaman still had a good game against Phoenix with 17 points and 14 rebounds. He has become a go-to guy for the Clippers, averaging 18.4 points, 14.1 rebounds and 38.1 minutes per game. His rebounding puts him third in the NBA behind Denver's Marcus Camby and Orlando's Dwight Howard.

His consistent production continues to be in stark contrast to the previous season, but things are far from perfect for him. He keeps encountering various annoyances, including yet another one against Phoenix.

"I got dunked on, and I got dunked on some other times this year," Kaman said. "It's not fun. It's two points for them. The difference is you're stuck on SportsCenter when the night's over."

[SwingMan]

Cuban is a douche...why protest one call when you lost the game by 4 points?? Fine take that 3 away and they still lose by 2!! LOL

I think Cuban has a personal vendetta against Benett Salvatore...wouldnt you agree?

Ref's miss calls all the time...How many times have we seen a 3 changed to a 2 etc...this kinda stuff happens all the time. its 1 god damn point!! The Mavs still lost the game...blah blah blah

Hang tight, zara. I'd bet the serenade ain't over yet - the Mavericks lost by 2, 97-95, at Milwaukee last night. :lol:

[Dustbuster]

Not only have the Mavs lost a few close ones, but several of their wins have come from behind in the last few minutes. The fact that they can't consistently pull that off should make it a red flag for the Mavs. They are letting other teams jump on them and they don't always have enough firepower to come back.

I personally think that last year's first round exit is going to take a lot of wind out of the Mav's sails. They don't have the swagger and the confidence that they had last season when they were running over teams. Their confidence has taken a hit, and they didn't really add any players of consequence that were unaffected by that loss.

[zara_drummer]

Not only have the Mavs lost a few close ones, but several of their wins have come from behind in the last few minutes. The fact that they can't consistently pull that off should make it a red flag for the Mavs. They are letting other teams jump on them and they don't always have enough firepower to come back.

I personally think that last year's first round exit is going to take a lot of wind out of the Mav's sails. They don't have the swagger and the confidence that they had last season when they were running over teams. Their confidence has taken a hit, and they didn't really add any players of consequence that were unaffected by that loss.

Its a crying shame isnt it?!?! :twisted:

[Wormwood]

The Suns haven't exactly been winning pretty against some bad competition either in the first part of the season. The comments about being a "joyless" team at times as a result of last year's very deflating loss to the Spurs seem to have some merit.

On an up side though, we've taken care of teams that have no business beating us for the past 8 games.

[SwingMan]

The Suns haven't exactly been winning pretty against some bad competition either in the first part of the season. The comments about being a "joyless" team at times as a result of last year's very deflating loss to the Spurs seem to have some merit.

On an up side though, we've taken care of teams that have no business beating us for the past 8 games.

Unlike Dallas - Indiana & Milwaukee aren't exactly teams that'll turn your lights out, let alone anywhere near elite.

The Suns have played bad to start the season, but, although it seemed like it at times, they haven't ditched their mettle. I've always maintained that Dallas is nothing but a bunch of cream puffs, headed by a softie (Dirk) that rattles easier than a maraca - and they're making me look good.

Nice adds of Jones & Howard, 'eh? :lol:

[JustWinBaby]

We really only have a few wins against quality teams, of course we have only played a few quality teams up to this point.

We should all enjoy the ride for now and I for one can't wait until we play the Celtics, Pistons, Magic again, Mavs, Spurs, Pistons or Jazz.

If we win against those teams all will be good, I expect we will.

Oh yeah the Christams game against the Lakers, should be fun.

PS: Read today that Ariza has serious problems with his foot, it seems as though that trade was in fact a salary dump, to make room for another trade or just ditch unwanted salary.

[ShelC]

I swear, there have been quite a few times ive seen a guy take and make a 3 and it only gets scored as a 2pt shot.

[bobster]

Quite interesting to see how the Suns' defense ranks - so much of their reputation is because of the total number of points rather than the number of points per possession.

Also interesting is how Dallas [ranked 18th] is not quite the defensive juggernaut that people make them out to be -

From http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/

OFFENSIVE POINTS PER 100 POSSESSIONS

1 - Dallas - 114.1
2 - Phoenix - 112.5
3 - San Antonio - 112.2
4 - Boston - 112.1
5 - Orlando 111.9
6 - LA Lakers - 111.4
7 - Detroit - 110.6
8 - Utah - 110.6
9 - Golden State 110.5
10 - Memphis - 109.9

26 - Philadelphia - 99.8
27 - Seattle - 99.4
28 - Miami - 98.2
29 - New Jersey 96.2
30 - Chicago - 92.1

DEFENSIVE POINTS PER 100 POSESSIONS

1 - Boston - 95.6
2 - Denver 100.0
3 - San Antonio - 102.3
4 - Phoenix - 102.3
5 - Utah 102.4
6 - New Orleans - 102.5
7 - Orlando - 103.2
8 - Chicago - 108.3
9 - Houston - 104.0
10 - Philadelphia - 104.1

26 - New York - 110.5
27 - Sacramento - 112.2
28 - Memphis - 112.8
29 - Minnesota - 112.9
30 - Golden State - 113.0

GAME PACE - AVERAGE OF OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE POSSESSIONS

1 - Denver - 98.8
2 - Seattle - 98.2
3 - Phoenix - 97.3
4 - Indiana - 96.4
5 - Golden State - 96.0
6 - Utah - 95.6
7 - LA Lakers - 95.1
8 - Memphis - 94.8
9 - LA Clippers - 93.7
10 - Chicago - 93.1

26 - New Orleans - 88.9
26 - San Antonio Spurs - 88.9
28 - Miami - 88.7
28 - Detroit - 88.7
30 - Atlanta - 88.6

It's easy to see why Chicago is so abysmal - they can't score.

And the Suns haven't faced the three worst defenses yet [Memphis, Minnesota, Golden State] it'll be interesting to see what they do against them.

[Wormwood]

BTW - Thanks for posting this stuff Swing. If only my thesis were as entertaining as .net, I'd be done by now.

[Nodack]

The Suns have played bad to start the season

11-2 with the second best start in franchise history
Ranked #2 in Offense
Ranked #4 in Defense
Tied for 1st in the Western Conference
1st in Pacific
Ranked #1 in the NBA in power rankings


Yeah they have really started bad haven't they?

[SwingMan]

The Suns have played bad to start the season

11-2 with the second best start in franchise history
Ranked #2 in Offense
Ranked #4 in Defense
Tied for 1st in the Western Conference
1st in Pacific
Ranked #1 in the NBA in power rankings


Yeah they have really started bad haven't they?

Oh, I'm sorry:

Everything's perfect - and I should've been clearer by stating that I'm talking about pre-Miami. :roll:

BTW, you forgot the 8 game streaker as well, so lay off my ass.....

[Wormwood]

Good post Bobster. We've had weak competition, but those defensive stats are intriguing.

[JediSkywalker]

Cuban is a douche...why protest one call when you lost the game by 4 points?? Fine take that 3 away and they still lose by 2!! LOL

I think Cuban has a personal vendetta against Benett Salvatore...wouldnt you agree?

Ref's miss calls all the time...How many times have we seen a 3 changed to a 2 etc...this kinda stuff happens all the time. its 1 god damn point!! The Mavs still lost the game...blah blah blah

I don't care for Cuban, but it is good that he is taking the initiative to point out ref mistakes. NBA officiating is subpar compared to other sports, and Stern refuses to acknowledge that. He has been using the kind of arguments you used. Other owners are too afraid to speak up against poor officiating (and sometimes personal vendettas) because they could be fined. Kudos to Cuban for caring for his team.

[bobster]

i'm probably in the minority here, but i really don't think basketball officiating is any worse than the other sports.

take baseball for example - not only do you have the inconsistancy of varying strike zones from umpire to umpire, but they can vary from inning to inning.

then there's the 'in the area' call at second base where the secondbaseman doesn't actually have to be on the bag when he takes a throw.

there's also the call where a player is called out because the ball beat him to a base wheter he was tagged before reaching the bag or not.

and ther's the acceptance of exceptions to certain rules - fielders [catchers in particular] are allowed to block the basepath. pickoff throws are allowed to skirt balk rules. the batters whipoe out the lines of the batter's box in order to take a stance beyond the back line.

and baseball is not played at the breakneck pace that basketball is.

i'm not saying basketball referees are perfect, because they make mistakes every game. but unless you have video review of every call you're not going to approach perfection.

i'm for strict inteprtation of the rules, but the rules should also make sense, and some rules [such as leaving the immediate area of the bench] should be left up to some common sense.

unfortunately we had a contoversial and crucial call go against the suns in the playoffs last year, but considering the past interpretation of the rule, i wasn't suprised by the outcome.

but, i'm not willing to say 'let the referees decide which rules to enforce' because i remember the 1976 NBA Finals when they chose to ignore paul silas of boston calling an illegal timeout. when you start doing that you're putting to much power in their hands.

i can live with an occassional honest mistake, but not errors in judgement.

[EDC]

I personally think the block/charge fouls are just weighing down the game. Flopping is just running rampant and on top of that its not about playing good defense its about sliding in there at the last second and falling over. I think the little circle they put in under the basket is having a bad effect on the game. Instead of watching the players and the play the refs are checking where their feet are.

One of the big differences between something like basketball and baseball is the fact that fouls cause stars to sit on the bench. In a game where they market the stars they force them to sit on the sidelines due to questionable calls. I know the refs aren't perfect and they definitely have a tough job. Just doesn't help that the results of missed or bad calls ends up with stars on the bench.

Hopefully we will see a few more rule changes in the next few years that specifically target flopping. Hopefully those same rules will result in better defense instead of just running in front of someone at the last second and falling over.

[bobster]

two simple rule changes they can make -

1. technical fouls for floppers.

2. rather than a disqualification after the sixth foul, a technical for each foul after a player's sixth [like the ABA used to do]. that gives the coach an option of gambling whether keeping a star in afther his sixth is worth the possibility of a technical.

[duck44]

The Suns have played bad to start the season

11-2 with the second best start in franchise history
Ranked #2 in Offense
Ranked #4 in Defense
Tied for 1st in the Western Conference
1st in Pacific
Ranked #1 in the NBA in power rankings


Yeah they have really started bad haven't they?

Nice post Nodack! :wink:

[Mori_Chu]

two simple rule changes they can make -

1. technical fouls for floppers.

2. rather than a disqualification after the sixth foul, a technical for each foul after a player's sixth [like the ABA used to do]. that gives the coach an option of gambling whether keeping a star in afther his sixth is worth the possibility of a technical.

I am totally in favor with both of these ideas. I'll add one I've stumped for before: One "call challenge" per coach per half. Must use a timeout to use one.

[JediSkywalker]

two simple rule changes they can make -

1. technical fouls for floppers.

2. rather than a disqualification after the sixth foul, a technical for each foul after a player's sixth [like the ABA used to do]. that gives the coach an option of gambling whether keeping a star in afther his sixth is worth the possibility of a technical.

I like #2. It will discourage teams and dishonest refs from 'taking out' key players.

#1 will be tough to enforce. It involves too much subjectivity and it could be misused.

I would like to see the use of replay & 1 challenge per team in each half (or may be just 2 per game, to be used at any time).

[Nodack]

1. is ok or just call the foul against the flopper.

2. I could go along with that as long as it's the normal two free throws for the foul and the tech on top of it.

[JustWinBaby]

2. rather than a disqualification after the sixth foul, a technical for each foul after a player's sixth [like the ABA used to do]. that gives the coach an option of gambling whether keeping a star in afther his sixth is worth the possibility of a technical.

I think the main reason people here like this is that our big guy has a penchant for fouls.

Trying to get the other teams best player in foul trouble has been very good strategy for years. I say leave it alone. Amare just needs to stay out of foul trouble.

[INFORMER]

So when reserve forward Boris Diaw is not as aggressive as fans would like, coach Mike D'Antoni does not see that as a team detriment.

"He's a big part of what we do," D'Antoni said. "It's like when you make a nice pie. Not everybody can be the cherries or the sugar or whatever. Somebody has to do all of the other stuff. He does everything else."

:roll:

[bobster]

I think the main reason people here like this is that our big guy has a penchant for fouls.

Trying to get the other teams best player in foul trouble has been very good strategy for years. I say leave it alone. Amare just needs to stay out of foul trouble.

i just don't see the point of disqualifying a player for personal fouls. sure, penalize a team if they commit an excessive number of fouls, but let the players play the game. i've always felt that way.

[Mori_Chu]

Trying to get the other teams best player in foul trouble has been very good strategy for years. I say leave it alone. Amare just needs to stay out of foul trouble.

I heard a good anti-foul-out rant once that essentially said: The NBA is the only sport where a player has to sit out the rest of the game for fouls. In every other sport you get to watch the best players compete at crunch time. In the NBA, possibly not.

I think a player should be allowed to stay on the floor after 6 fouls, but there should be a stiff penalty for each additional foul. Two freethrows and the ball, would be my recommendation.

[cap]

The NBA is the only sport where a player has to sit out the rest of the game for fouls.
Also hockey, for a foul in the last two minutes.

And soccer, for a red card.

[zara_drummer]

I dont have a problem with players being disqualified after 6 fouls...Doing otherwise takes alot of the guess work out of it for coaches...sure he has 6 and the other team might get the ball back but just think how many more flagrants there would be and you think "hack-a-shaq" is bad now?? good lord!!

I think its a good thing that players learn how to defend and learn how to play with alot of fouls...Do I think its bad for Amare?? lol YES!! he needs to settle his ass down!!

[Andy_S]

The NBA is the only sport where a player has to sit out the rest of the game for fouls.
Also hockey, for a foul in the last two minutes.

And soccer, for a red card.

He said the only sport, not the only game. :D

[Andy_S]

I dont have a problem with players being disqualified after 6 fouls...Doing otherwise takes alot of the guess work out of it for coaches...sure he has 6 and the other team might get the ball back but just think how many more flagrants there would be and you think "hack-a-shaq" is bad now?? good lord!!

I think its a good thing that players learn how to defend and learn how to play with alot of fouls...Do I think its bad for Amare?? lol YES!! he needs to settle his ass down!!

You miss the point, Zara. The guess work is still there, because Shaq shooting 3 free throws at 60% is still likely to get 2 points, but possibly three. If your player has over 5 fouls, then every foul he commits becomes a possible three point play. So, it would not at all increase the hack-a-shaq syndrome. However, it would allow coaches to keep good defenders in the game (with a price attached). Players would still need to learn how to play with lots of fouls -- in fact, they'd need to learn more than they have.

[zara_drummer]

Then why have have a # of fouls per player at all?? You already get 2 shots when your over the team foul limit...why not just make them "team" fouls?? Then if say if you get 5 as a team in quarter you still get the bonus of 1 + the penalty, but then say after 10 team fouls, you get 2 + the penalty...And do away with disqualifying players altogether...

I like being able to get a guy disqualified in a game...Its awesome to see a great offensive player get a good/great defender into foul trouble...Thats a dynamic of the game that coaches prepare for...on both sides...

I get the point...I just think that allowing a player to continue changes the dynamic of the game in the favor of the offending team...regardless of a 3 shot rule...

[JustWinBaby]

I like being able to get a guy disqualified in a game...Its awesome to see a great offensive player get a good/great defender into foul trouble...Thats a dynamic of the game that coaches prepare for...on both sides...

I agree

Who here does not want to see Duncan in foul trouble when we play the Spurs? If you don't, your are lieing.

The addition of Grant Hill with a more agressive Marion going to the hole and a healthy Amare can make that happen.

If we can get him in foul trouble it opens up everything for our team. Of course he needs to foul at least 12 times prior to geeting 4 or 5 fouls called. Therein lies the problem, not the number of fouls, how they are called.

[EDC]

Yeah but that is kinda the point. Who wants to see a series decided by subjective calls? Wouldn't we all rather see the best players from both teams decide who is the best on the court?

[Mori_Chu]

Who here does not want to see Duncan in foul trouble when we play the Spurs? If you don't, your are lieing.

Well, yes, I do want to see Duncan get in foul trouble, but no more than I want the refs to make every call in the Suns' favor. What I want as a biased Suns fan isn't necessarily what's best for the game.


Yeah but that is kinda the point. Who wants to see a series decided by subjective calls? Wouldn't we all rather see the best players from both teams decide who is the best on the court?

Exactly. Best 5 guys on the court for each team in crunch time. Only injury can keep them out, not the whim of some half-blind ref.

[sehan]

Agree that the no foul out rule will reduce the ref's effect on the outcome of the game which is a good thing.

A side effect might be defensive juggernauts not worrying about foul as much the game getting more physical, which will likely slow the game down more. After several rule changes to get the game more high flying and fast face, probably not the direction we want to go...

[Squeege63]

The idea of fouls by a player who has 6+ fouls being worth 3 FTs or an And 2 is interesting because it would still be a hindrance to players as they wouldn't want to be giving up that many points, since it would be potentially worth more points than normal. It would allow players to stay in the game but it would be a calculated risk to keep them in there.

[SpecialSauce]

So when reserve forward Boris Diaw is not as aggressive as fans would like, coach Mike D'Antoni does not see that as a team detriment.

"He's a big part of what we do," D'Antoni said. "It's like when you make a nice pie. Not everybody can be the cherries or the sugar or whatever. Somebody has to do all of the other stuff. He does everything else."

:roll:

:roll: @ your :roll: